Episode 30 - Understanding Family Dynamics in Estate Planning with Julia Chung
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In this week's episode, Nicole and Greg chat with Julia Chung, CEO of Spring Planning, to explore the intricacies of estate planning and wealth transfer. Julia shares her expertise on the evolving dynamics of wealth transfer, emphasizing the importance of open family communication and recognizing various forms of wealth beyond financial assets. The discussion highlights the challenges faced by blended families and the common "shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves" phenomenon. Julia advocates for a multidisciplinary approach, involving financial planners, lawyers, and mental health experts, to create a holistic and harmonious estate planning process.
Transcript:
Nicole 00:00:02 Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters with your hosts, my colleague Greg Brennand and myself, Nicole Garton of Heritage Trust.
Greg 00:00:09 Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy.
Nicole 00:00:16 If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow.
Greg 00:00:33 With us today on Your Estate Matters is Julia Chung, CEO and co-founder of Spring Planning, an advice-only financial planning firm. Julia specializes in personal finance, multigenerational wealth, legacy and succession planning. As co-author, she contributed to the books Women and Money, The Art of Delegation, and The Entrepreneur's Survival Guide. Julia is a board director at Family Enterprise Canada, chair of the FDA Council, and co-founder and CEO of the Financial Planning Association of Canada.
Nicole 00:01:09 Julia, thank you so much for being here with us today. So, tell us about yourself and your journey to your current role as CEO of Spring Planning.
Julia 00:01:17 Well, career wise, I'd spent about ten, 15 years working through various investment firms, learning how to, you know, do all kinds of jobs.
Julia 00:01:27 I was a trader. I was an administrator. I was what they used to call a stockbroker. And I got my insurance license and all that kind of stuff. And eventually what I found is my favorite part of the whole thing was really talking to people and figuring out how to help them make really great decisions amidst all of these different complexities that they're having to deal with. And that's really where comprehensive financial planning fits in. And at the time, it was always the sort of add on to, you know, your investment Brokers services. Maybe they do a little couple of projections and be like, you're okay. And then move on with our lives. And I felt really strongly that there's a better way to do that. So I ended up partnering with an accounting firm and starting what we now call “advice-only” financial planning. Sometimes people call it fee for service, so there's no AUM or sales involved. It's really just, you know, paying a professional for their time to help you make decisions.
Nicole 00:02:28 For our listeners, what's the AUM?
Julia 00:02:30 Oh Assets Under Management. So that's that. If you work with an investment manager and they charge you a percentage every year.
Nicole 00:02:38 How does that relate to an MER?
Julia 00:02:39 Yeah that's different. So the AUM kind of looks at everything that you have in an account and that your manager says, you know, I'm going to charge you 1% or whatever, and MER is a Management Expense Ratio. And so inside your account. So you have a couple of funds. The funds themselves charge the MER, which is the fee, and a portion of that goes to your manager. In some situations, the ones I don't love. The manager has both an MER situation and an overriding fee.
Nicole 00:03:11 And so is there a disclosure? Like how do clients know what those fees are?
Julia 00:03:16 There is disclosure. It is very complicated and extremely hard to read. And I will say to for a lot of the advisors who are working in these systems, it's also hard for them to explain because of how the regulation works and what they're supposed to give people.
Julia 00:03:31 And these you're already signing 18 million forms. Here's another one. It's pretty tough to navigate.
Greg 00:03:37 Well, how has the transfer of wealth changed over the years?
Julia 00:03:41 It's been really dramatic. There's a couple of ways that it's been dramatic. One is big picture demographics. Of course. You know we've got an aging population. And so there's just more transfers of wealth happening right now. But there's also people living much longer than they're thinking about transfers of wealth much earlier than it might ever happen. And not really considering how long they might potentially live. So that's kind of problematic. There's another cultural thing going on as well. So I would say, you know, ten, 20 years ago, most people who were looking at transferring wealth would not talk to the transferee about it at all. This is what's happening. This is my money. You will take it or leave it, I don't care. And I would say now it's a lot more common for people to want to talk to the next generation.
Julia 00:04:32 Have a collaborative discussion. Does this actually work? Is the timing right? Are they well equipped? It's a lot more thorough, less authoritarian.
Nicole 00:04:40 So how does that impact your practice, the figuring of society?
Julia 00:04:46 Deeply. And we're having more interesting conversations and we're bringing more people into the conversation. And most people don't really have the training or skill set to navigate those. You know, those of us who went to school for technical expertise, you know. Oh, you know, I don't know what the Income Tax Act says, or I know what the law says or those kinds of things. And yet our clients are coming in and saying, but I need to have a conversation, or they're not even saying that. They're just like, “How do I do this?”
Julia 00:05:15 And being able to say to them what we're what we need to do first is have a conversation. Because I've seen so many families absolutely implode from a relationship standpoint, despite beautifully elegant estate strategies that are just, you know, they fit the Income Tax Act.
Julia 00:05:32 The laws line up perfectly, but everybody's mad and nobody's talking to each other anymore. And everybody has seen that in their own families. And now they're saying, how do I not make that happen?
Greg 00:05:44 Is the challenge greater for the planning side or the conversation side for the blended family?
Julia 00:05:49 Oh of course, yeah.
Julia 00:05:51 Because there's not only laws and all sorts of things that get in there family laws, state law and then Income Tax Act. And of course, there's feelings which are the biggest issue going on in the different families that have their own different sets of values that are trying to navigate this process together.
Greg 00:06:10 Would you say there's different types of wealth? And if so, how would you classify them?
Julia 00:06:15 There are all kinds of different types of wealth, and I think most people tend to think about wealth in a family context, about being, you know, hard assets like real estate and financial instruments and absolutely, those things exist. But when we think about the wealth of a family, when you think about what's valuable in your family, you probably don't say, you know what the most valuable thing in my family is? The business my dad built.
Julia 00:06:40 It might be a valuable asset, but the most valuable thing in your family are the things that your family have together. And it's very often things like our value system or our human capital. You might have a bunch of people in your family who are really talented and good at supporting each other in particular things. That kind of wealth is incredible.
Nicole 00:06:59 So we are both graduates of the Family Enterprise Advisor program. And they talk about that. What are some of the other wealths? Is it relationships and philanthropic?
Julia 00:07:13 Yeah, there can be philanthropic. And then there's like sentimental things as well. There's might be something that's passed down in your family for years. Like my grandfather was in the RAF and he had some, you know, pins and medals and that sort of thing. Those are incredibly valuable in my family. Like, if anybody was going to go to court, it'd be about that.
Nicole 00:07:33 So do you talk about those other kinds of wealth with your clients? And if so, how does that go?
Julia 00:07:38 Well, generally they get confused.
Julia 00:07:40 A lot of times when I'm speaking to clients, at first they're like, I thought we were going to talk about my RRSP, what are we doing here? But, you know, I try to bring it into the conversation and talk to them about what's important to them. First and foremost, get curious who are you, what's important to you? And then when they sort of start questioning these other things that are coming along, I can bring it back to. But you told me that family harmony is so important, and that this particular component in your family cottage, your grandfather's medals, these were really valuable to you. So we can't ignore that in the face of all the other planning we're doing. So it's just about reminding people.
Nicole 00:08:19 So what would you call a successful intergenerational transfer of wealth? How would you quantify that?
Julia 00:08:25 It would be about how happy the people are at the end of the thing, that the relationships remain intact and that the anxiety is reduced in the family system. And if that means that we lost a little bit of money to make that happen, I'm pretty okay with that because the value of the family together, we can always make more money.
Julia 00:08:51 That's a real possibility. And yes, that can feel sad when we, you know, maybe make that hard choice to lose this piece of real estate or that business. But the most important thing is the family stays intact and we stay together. It's one of the things that I think is hardest to do in our culture, which isn't really designed around multigenerational relationships. So it's like we're we're learning how to do this in Canada, even though we come from places where that's normal.
Nicole 00:09:19 So, Julia, can you chat with us about the shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations and how that manifests in intergenerational wealth transfer?
Julia 00:09:30 Yeah. It's this idea that basically, the first generation makes money, second generation spends the money their generation's got, nothing has to start all over again. And that is there's a phrase for it in pretty much every culture in the world because it's so common. And really, I think what is happening in families. And I definitely saw this play out in my own family, my grandfather to my father, to my generation, where we're starting all over again.
Julia 00:09:58 The person who started in the first generation who built the money, doesn't have knowledge and experience about how to transition wealth, because nobody transitioned wealth to them. And so they're guessing and they do things like, okay, I'm going to send all my kids to the schools that I couldn't go to. I'm going to give them access to things that I never had, because that kind of sucked. And I don't want people to have to do that again. But then we don't necessarily build the resilience and the talent in the next generation to carry things on, because we don't have that knowledge and experience about how this works. And so by the time we get to the third generation, there really isn't any wealth to transfer. And there may be actually a loss of the talent and skill that got us to things in the first place. So if we can recognize that we know what we do know, and we don't know what we don't know and try to find people who have skills, experience, theoretical training, even around these areas to build that up in our families, we can surpass and get around that kind of three generation curse.
Nicole 00:11:02 So it's funny because the statistics of business succession aren't great in terms of success. I think what is it? Most small businesses are going to transfer the next ten years, but nobody's planning for it. But I think there's another side that says, is success necessarily transferring the business, like if it's sold and then there's funds that allow the family to move on in a different avenue. That's not necessarily a failure. Do you have thoughts about that?
Julia 00:11:32 Absolutely. So one of the things that I think is kind of interesting is going through the FEA program, and one of the few things I didn't totally agree with, and I've had conversations with the instructors about this. One of the things I didn't totally agree with is the idea that it is about one business that transitions from family to family, and I think that's a very North American perspective because we're a young culture. And so the idea that one business carries through and that's the family enterprise. And we can do things like trim the family tree, which sounds outrageous to me.
Julia 00:12:07 That doesn't make sense to me in lots of ways, because you can start with a business like my grandfather started with a laundromat and this very surprising Chinese story: laundromat, and then a restaurant, and he built out from there, and there have been some business assets that have transitioned through the family after his passing. They weren't the laundromat and they weren't the restaurant. But there is wealth and there is transitions. And, some of the reasons why those businesses didn't transfer is because the next generation were not people who wanted to run a business like that. It didn't make them happy. But we still have generational wealth, generational acumen and opportunity that we can pass. So the family enterprise is so much more than this one business.
Nicole 00:12:58 Let's talk about immigration, because that story that you talk about the grandfather, the Chinese Canadian that ended up starting a business. And I know my husband is the son of Greek immigrants that came with nothing and started a restaurant. And him and his brother are not professionals.
Nicole 00:13:14 Like, it's interesting that immigrants to Canada, their children, actually have higher wealth and education than Canadian born people. So what do you think is happening there? Are we too soft on our children?
Julia 00:13:29 I think part of it is that that experience of the parent kind of coming from nothing, showing up here with empty pockets, saying, I gotta get stuff done and then saying, I don't want my kids to work that hard. And not saying necessarily, hopefully “I'm just gonna give it to them.” We'll be fine. hopefully saying, “I'm going to build this resilience.” There's a wonderful Jewish family that I worked with. And, you know, we talked about there's historical grief and trauma throughout their entire family system and they talk about it. And one of the things that the matriarch said to me is “almost everything can be taken away from you. Your passport, your wealth, almost everything can be taken away from you. You have proof of that.” You know what can't be taken away?
Julia 00:14:21 What's in here. And so we are going to invest in the education of our children because they will always do well because of that.
Nicole 00:14:31 So I got some Viktor Frankl “man’s search for meaning” going on here. It's getting deep. Julia!
Greg 00:14:39 Well, I think that leads to, you know, does family, culture and values play a role in this process?
Julia 00:14:45 It's the most important thing. And it's and it seems like super woo-woo again, sometimes people come back to me and be like, I just wanted to know how much tax I was going to pay. And now Julie is asking me about my feelings. But it's so vital. I think a lot of times in our culture, we think that decision making is purely rational, and the best way we can make decisions is by using numbers and facts. And the thing is, is that numbers and facts are always in flux, and human beings don't make decisions without emotion. As much as we can try to remove emotion from our decision-making process, that's always wrong.
Julia 00:15:24 Our brains must engage emotionally with the decision for it to stick. So you can say like, oh, my accountant says this is the most tax efficient way to do whatever thing that we're doing. Sure, maybe it is, but what does that have to do with what your family wants and needs? Collectively and as individuals, we can have the most beautiful solution ever. It looks great on paper. All the numbers line up, everybody's really happy and patting themselves on the back, and then we still have a situation where people feel disenfranchised. We have relationships that break up. People who didn't feel heard or even people just won't follow this. You've created a great plan, but it doesn't resonate with me. So I'm going to go do something else. And especially entrepreneurial families. Entrepreneurs don't follow rules. They don't like them. They'll do whatever they want. “This doesn't feel good. I'm going to do that.” And they can even ask you for the most elegant solution. Tell you that they're completely bought in.
Julia 00:16:26 Ten minutes later, they saw something cool. This sucks. It's gone. The plan's over. It didn't work. And now they think you're planning sucks. And it did. It sucked because we didn't connect it with the values and the emotions and the meaning of those people. And unfortunately, most people who work in our professions were not taught how to do that. That's not part of the curriculum. So it's really important.
Nicole 00:16:56 We see that a lot. I think we also see the wealth creator, which, you know, society has generally been the patriarch. The qualities that allowed him to generate the wealth, he was more of a command and control kind of guy. Yeah. And then trying to get someone like that to have EQ and look at things from a more holistic perspective, that's not always the easiest thing to do, is it?
Julia 00:17:21 No, it's pretty tough. But what I will say is that no matter what, that guy loves his family. And if we can find a way to connect with that love of family, and we can open some doors here and there and say, you know, like you really care about this kid…you think they're super weird and maybe you think they're not going anywhere in life, but you love them.
Julia 00:17:48 How can we open some doors here for conversation and connection? How can we make this easier for them. And that can be a really long journey. And that's tough. That's tough for everybody because we want to take action. We want to solve problems now.
Nicole 00:18:03 So we have a lot of conversations with those, both creators at Heritage Trust, where the next generation is an artist, or living on a Gulf island working in construction, or they want to impose a trust structure, sort of a command and control from the grave using a trust company. And we see the issues that so often we're partnering with people like you is really helpful to try to get more holistic, sustainable solutions for a family rather than imposing a structure.
Julia 00:18:35 I would say that those in position in that command and control thing, what we do need to recognize is that comes from a place of fear. And if we can figure out what that fear is and speak to it and find a way to create that psychological safety, that person needs to just let go a little bit can make a huge difference.
Nicole 00:18:54 So wise.
Greg 00:18:57 Yeah, I think warm hand gifting versus cold hand gifting is better.
Julia 00:19:02 It is. And the people who are doing it with cold hands, they do mean well. And that's the thing. Dawn Schooler, who I work with quite a bit, who's a wonderful professional in psychology, has said again and again the behavior, even if it looks insane, whatever behavior somebody is engaging in, it makes sense to them. And if we can do a really good job of finding out why it makes sense to them instead of trying to convince them why they're wrong, we're going to do a better job of connecting them with the next step.
Greg 00:19:34 Well, what are some of the best practices to help prepare the next generation for success?
Julia 00:19:39 There are so many. I mean, and it always does start with who is this person? And I think, again, we tend to impose these ideas. And one of the things I see again and again and it's not wrong, is my kid needs more financial literacy.
Julia 00:19:55 My kid needs to know more about money. And probably. But if it's not connected with the person that they are, they're not going to retain any of it if they're not even going to be interested. If you can actually get them to show up at the, you know, session we've created, and maybe they'll fill out the quiz. Cool. All they're doing is checking a box for you. They're not doing something that's actually building strength and resilience inside them. So again, we need to start with the person that they are, what's important to them. How does this person see the next stage of their life? They're probably not seeing it very clearly because they're, you know, young and they're not a fully formed human. But if we can work with the developmental stage of each person in each generation and try to get them to the point where they are doing things like self-reflection, understanding themselves, and then being able to articulate that to other people, we can build that resilience and strength so that they're ready to receive whatever our wealth looks like in a way that makes sense for them.
Nicole 00:20:56 So what team of professionals might someone put together to help? Not just the technical piece, but also the family holistic piece that you're talking about?
Julia 00:21:06 Have a lot of people. I love having a counseling professional on the team. I have yet to meet a family that doesn't have some problems. Most of my families have said, well, we're a little dysfunctional. And I'm like, I don't know that I've met a functional one. There are mental health issues. There are addiction issues. There are, you know, physical health issues, all kinds of things going on all the time. And as wonderful as our relationships could be within our family, we haven't been taught how to professionally engage. And that's really hard. So if we can, you know, bring somebody in in a way that feels safe for them because there's lots of people who are like, oh, you're not bringing in a shrink. I'm not crazy. So like, how do we do this in a way that feels safe for them? And things like building out communication courses.
Julia 00:22:00 You know, that feels very non-judgmental. And that's a big piece of it. And then, of course, you know, I think it's important to have somebody like me who looks at things from the big picture and can see all the different professionals we might need. Of course, we need lawyers and accountants, and we might need professional business executives. We might need investment managers, real estate folks. It all kind of depends on what our wealth looks like and where we're going. Executive coaches can be super helpful. I work with Laura Barton quite a bit on that area. She's fantastic. So there's lots of people. I wouldn't say there's necessarily a standard for every family, but all of these people are out there and could be brought together in a team.
Nicole 00:22:46 So when you say work with someone like me, do you mean in the context of a leader of a multidisciplinary disciplinary group or do say, in the context of a trained financial planner?
Julia 00:22:57 Both. Sort of. Yeah. Because again, we're looking at decisions being made in a lot of different specialty areas.
Julia 00:23:04 And the financial planner who's trained well is somebody who actually is like a doctor who's like your family doctor. I'm not a cardiologist, but I can tell when something's wrong with your heart. That sort of thing, I think, can be really valuable, because your cardiologist will always be, like, only looking at your heart. And you need someone who can see the whole body.
Nicole 00:23:26 That's a very apt analogy.
Greg 00:23:29 What's the best way to initiate for a family to get the process started, or with the family to get the process started?
Julia 00:23:36 It's interesting because every family starts from a different angle, and that's one of the values of having family enterprise advisors who have come from a lot of disciplines. So a family might come to your team and say, we definitely need, you know, a corporate Trustee. Somebody might come to their investment manager and say, we need help here. The doors in are all over the place, but ideally what's happening is they're ending up connecting with somebody who is a family enterprise advisor who can say, oh, okay, I see where you're going with this, and I'm going to bring in some more people because there's different kinds of expertise that we need.
Julia 00:24:15 I would say most families have no idea what they need, and they go to their closest professional and they're like, “I'm thinking this…Who are you? Do you do this?”
Nicole 00:24:27 And can you speak to the fact that the dog shouldn't wag the tail at like. And what happens with tax for example. Like that seems to be a leading construct when and I think you've referenced it, these beautiful tax plans fall apart because the family hasn't bought in or quite frankly doesn't even understand the structure.
Julia 00:24:49 It happens all the time. The number of families that I've met where we've got, you know, 16 different corporations, three different family trusts. And sometimes we have an accountant for each entity, and then we've got a personal one and I'm like, oh my goodness. So do you know what's happening here? And they're like, “no, no, the accountants will figure it out.” And I understand that because a lot of times professionals speak this really weird language. And it's basically like they're speaking hieroglyphics and you're like, “okay, it's the right thing to do.
Julia 00:25:17 I'm not going to go to jail and I'm going to pay less tax. Sounds good.” Right? And so what happens is we often leave the decision making in the hands of that professional, and that professional is doing their best with the technical information that they have. And they're not asking the other questions. They're saying, you have asked me. I was talking about this with my assistant the other day. You go through a drive through, you're like, “you know what I need? I need a hamburger.” The person on the other end generally is not going to say, you know, “actually, I think you need the fish.” That's not it's not going to happen. They'd be like, “here's your hamburger. Would you like fries with that?” It's very hard for service professionals to say something different. We want to do what people ask us to do. And so we do end up with this, where you have somebody and certainly in Canada, a lot of our wealthy families are coming from very blue collar backgrounds, resource backgrounds, and they're walking into the office with the suit and they're like, again, keep me out of jail, save me taxes.
Julia 00:26:19 And and so they do that. They do all of those things. But it isn't necessarily the right thing for that family because nobody's talked about it.
Greg 00:26:28 So in any of your planning with these families, the new structure, the fee for service model, are you ever seeing any problems with the advisors they're using at the moment? And do you make recommendations sometimes?
Julia 00:26:41 Yes, as much as possible. I try to keep the advisory team that we have because relationships are important. Sometimes the client does come to me saying, like, I think this joker is messing up and I don't know how to tell. And that might be a little bit easier if that's exactly what's happening. But again, I would prefer to keep the advisors on the team that have been there. They've got history and they've got, you know, relationships. It can be really important. But when things are going wrong or I can see a problem, my first step is to talk to that advisor, because again, I do believe that people are trying to do the best job with the information that they have.
Julia 00:27:18 And so if I can go and talk to that advisor one on one and say, look, this is an issue I'm seeing, what am I missing? Right? Because you're the expert in your thing. I'm probably missing something. So tell me what I'm missing. What did you see? What did you learn? What information did you gather? Okay, here's what I have. In an ideal situation, what happens is we work out a solution together because they've got 10% of what's right. I've got 10% of what's right, and we're working together towards that. If I get not that which hasn't happened too often, I think most people are pretty collaborative, but every once in a while I'll get somebody who's like, I want nothing to do with this process, and you're wrong and go away. Then I will go back to the family and say, look, this was the discussion we had and it's up to you. What do you want to do next? Because I would say we're working with grown ups.
Julia 00:28:10 I don't care if they know less than me about tags. I know less than they do about gravel. Right? It's fine. So, you know, I want to give them the information that they need and let them figure out how we're going to approach this in the right way.
Nicole 00:28:24 As an independent trust company. We use generally the advisor that the family has. So that's one of the benefits of using us. So we end up working with a very wide cross-section of advisors across firms, whether they're independent or affiliated with big banks. And so we get to see a variety of fee structures, a variety of practice styles. But maybe I'll ask you maybe a spicy question, which is, do you notice that sometimes the really technically competent advisers that maybe really acted in the client's best interests aren't necessarily the best marketers? And then people sometimes will have big books because they're great marketers. And then you can look at the portfolio and they may be churning account to generate fees, or the management expense ratio might be really high, or the results might be lesser than what might be expected.
Nicole 00:29:21 How do you stick handle that?
Julia 00:29:23 Well, I will say that I left traditional investment management firms for a reason, and that reason is not necessarily that the people in those firms are bad. I think a lot of people go into this field because they want to help people, but the structures of that system are not claim first and they are not adviser first. They really are about pulling as much money as possible out of the client as quickly as possible. And because that is the direction that these firms have built. If people are going to come after me with like, steaks and fire now. But, a lot of times what's happened and not always, but a lot of times what's happened is the hiring has been salespeople. They hire people who are good at sales. So when I was first starting out in the industry, I definitely saw people being hired from, you know, the future shop sales floor for real, someone who's just selling stereos last week, I don't know, three months later, they've got their mutual funds license and they're now selling portfolios.
Julia 00:30:27 This is not a person who's actually well equipped to do this. And because the system is generally that you only learn about your job, within your job, there's quite high walls. Those people don't know that they're not doing the right thing. This is what they're taught. And so we get these structures and we get these systems where, you know, you can have a very genuine A salesperson who feels like they're doing the very best things for their clients because that's what they've been taught, is the best thing. And so, absolutely, I see that. And then I get the absolute superstar nerds. And I've worked in some pretty big firms, and I've looked at people's portfolios. And by and large, I have found that the ones who are maybe not as well equipped with interpersonal skills tend to be really great at portfolio construction. And some firms have done a really good job of recognizing that and creating systems that respect kind of the two skills set. So I see that a lot of investment counseling firms, we have an investment and research team, and that's all they do all day.
Julia 00:31:32 They never have to talk to people. They get to talk to each other about numbers and balance sheets, and they have a great time. And then they give their information to the people on the front line to have the relationship conversations. And I think that works tremendously well. It speaks to people's skill sets.
Nicole 00:31:49 So how can our listeners find you to learn more?
Julia 00:31:52 I have a website. Pretty easy: springplans.ca
Nicole 00:31:56 Wonderful. Thank you so much, Julia.
Greg 00:31:58 Thank you.
Nicole 00:31:59 Thank you. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual, legal, financial, or tax advice. Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Your Estate Matters. If you like this podcast, make sure to follow it on your podcast platform of choice.
Greg 00:32:22 Whether you are planning your own estate or you're acting as executive for somebody else's heritage, trust can help partner with heritage trusts to protect your family, your assets, and your legacy.
Nicole 00:32:33 If you would like more information about Heritage Trust, please visit our website at Heritage Trust Company.
Greg 00:32:46 This podcast is produced by Podfather Creative.