Episode 40 - Art, Value & Legacy: Insights from Fine Art Appraiser Jim Finlay
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In this fascinating episode of Your Estate Matters, Nicole and Greg sit down with Jim Finlay, accredited fine art appraiser and founder of Finlay Fine Art Appraisals. Jim shares his unique journey from architecture to art, and reveals what really goes into valuing fine art collections. How can art collectors protect the value of their investments? What role does provenance play in preserving an artwork’s legacy? And how does Canada’s cultural property export system affect the art market? Tune in for an engaging conversation that blends art, law, and estate planning and discover why fine art is about much more than just beauty on a wall.
Nicole 00:00:02 Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters with your hosts, my colleague Greg Brennand and myself, Nicole Garton of Heritage Trust.
Greg 00:00:09 Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy.
Nicole 00:00:16 If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow. With us today on Your Estate Matters, is Fine art appraiser Jim Findlay. Jim holds undergraduate degrees in art and art history, fine art studio art education, and a graduate diploma in Art history and a graduate degree in Comparative Media Arts. He is an accredited member of the International Society of Appraiser fine Art specialist. Jim has many years of experience in the business of fine art appraisal and fine art wealth management.
Greg 00:01:04 Jim, thanks for being here with us today to talk about fine art appraisal. Tell us about yourself, Jim, and how you got into fine and decorative art appraisal and appraising.
Jim 00:01:15 It's a long story. I'm always a little bit intimidated by this question because I.
Jim 00:01:22 I'm not sure what I should be divulging about myself. Born in Salisbury, Southern Rhodesia, what is now Zimbabwe. And I arrived in Canada in the mid 60s, settled with my parents in Hamilton, Ontario many years later, entered school, was trained as an architectural technologist originally, and was in industry for maybe ten years or so. Then I decided to go back to school, back to McMaster, got my degrees in art and art history and Fine arts studio with the intent of pursuing a career in art. Relocated to B.C. about 30 odd years ago. Through a series of events. Became a member of the Isa, which is the International Society of Appraisers Fine Art specialist, which is an appraisal. It's a professional appraisal organization based in the US, took their online courses, became accredited and set up my own business as an art appraiser, fine art appraiser. And that was 2005. Returned to school, got my masters from SFU in contemporary Art for no other reason than my competitors had master's degrees.
Jim 00:02:34 So I thought to be competitive I would do the same, which is what I did. I've been in business since 2005, roughly 20 years. Appraise. Vintage Canadian. American. Antique. Contemporary. European. ET cetera, et cetera. Basically, anything that comes my way, I appraise.
Greg 00:02:53 Right. And is it generally when you're approached, is it single items or is it more often a collection of items?
Jim 00:03:00 Specifically, it's a collection of items. I do have individuals who have single items that they would like to sort of get an idea as to what the value is, either for insurance purposes or for fair market value for resale. I do, divorce cases. People are getting divorced, and they want to know the value of the artwork collection that they have. I do insurance appraisals as well. But I would say generally it's people with collections that that contact me. In other words, there are people that have been collecting for years and know or at least have a general idea as to the value of the collection.
Jim 00:03:39 The content of their collection. Generally speaking, I would say those are the those of most of my clients.
Nicole 00:03:46 So you've got a really interesting and varied background for anyone that's interested in this area. What is the Requirement for education and credentials to do what you do.
Jim 00:03:57 First of all, become a member of the Isa and take their core course and Appraisal Studies course as well as their USP AP course, which is the Unified Standards of Personal Property Appraisal. Once you've sort of reached that level, then the requirement is to demonstrate that you have proficiency in a particular discipline, a particular area. The Isa actually has members who are there right across the board as far as items that they appraise, everything from furniture to automobiles, fine art, etc.. So yeah, you would you would become credentialed in your particular specialty. University courses usually also a requirement for years of service, if you will. In other words, years of practice. As an Isa appraiser, I'm obliged to requalify every five years to maintain my accredited membership in this organization, which I don't think any other professional organization has such a requirement.
Jim 00:05:03 I also take the USP AP courses every two years. That's kind of an up sort of an upgrading and updating of that particular document. So the Isa sort of has set itself apart from other professional appraisal organizations in the sense that education is extremely important, ongoing education, very important to sort of keep appraisers up to date and keep them current.
Nicole 00:05:32 So refresh my memory. What does the acronym Isa stand for?
Jim 00:05:35 Again, it stands for the International Society of Appraisers. It's actually one of three American appraisal organizations. There's also the AA, which is the American Association of Appraisers and the ASA. The American Society of Appraisers.
Nicole 00:05:55 What are the main areas or disciplines that people do?
Jim 00:05:59 Well, it's mainly fine art. I would say overwhelmingly fine art here in Canada. I don't know how many appraisers we have, but the large majority are based in Toronto and they're fine art based. There are several IHSA members across the country, mostly concentrated in the large metropolitan areas such as Toronto and Vancouver, to a certain extent.
Nicole 00:06:25 So I was going to ask that, is this a niche discipline or are there many of you?
Jim 00:06:31 There are many of us. It is a niche discipline. As I say, with most, most fine art members or fine art appraisers being concentrated in Toronto, Vancouver and maybe out East, there might be a couple of them out east, that sort of thing. You can actually search the Issa Canada website for members, their locations, their specialties. ET cetera, et cetera.
Greg 00:06:55 So I think that segues into the about the process and costs and timeline required to engage a fine art appraiser. So you just said you can go to the website, but when they make contact with you or some other member of that society or appraisal group, what is the process?
Jim 00:07:13 It's actually kind of a question and answer process initially. I have to find out why they want an appraisal. That's the reason the intended use, let's say, of the appraisal, whether it be for insurance, for fair market value for resale or they just want to sort of get an idea, sort of an oral idea as to what the value of a painting might be.
Jim 00:07:35 So once I know the answer to those questions, then I can sort of delve in a little deeper, ask questions about the collection, about the content of the collection, provenance, any provenance that they may have on their artworks. In other words. Provenance. Kind of a history of ownership where the pieces came from, whether by be, by descent, or by purchase from a gallery or another collector, let's say. So once I have all that information, the next thing is to do a site visit. Usually go to the sites, take images of the pieces. Collect data such as the media, the size, any provenance that the owner may have, that sort of thing, and then go home. Go back to my office and do the appraisal and send a PDF off to the client. The completed appraisal, I would say over the years, people who collect fine art or they're very happy to talk about their collection. They're very sort of involved in their collection personally, if you will.
Jim 00:08:36 Understandably, if you purchase a piece of fine art, you have an engagement, a connection with the piece on a personal level, I find owners are quite happy to sort of share that experience with me. An aesthetic experience, let's say, that they had when they bought the piece. It's kind of a very sort of personal relationship, I guess. To a certain extent that I set up with my clients and I enjoy that, I really do. I enjoy meeting people, talking to people about their collections. Quite happy to do that.
Nicole 00:09:08 So I read an article in the New York Times recently about the phenomena of consultants. So I understand there are it's, I guess, a niche practice, but families or collectors can hire consultants to help them create a collection or source art. Do you do you ever work in that capacity?
Jim 00:09:28 Not particularly. No. Not specifically. I have acted as a consultant for other reasons. One that sort of comes to mind is something that I'm involved in right now, where I have a client who has sold a Older painting to an overseas buyer, and we've applied to the export review board to get a clearance, if you will, to allow the painting to leave the country and go to its international purchaser.
Jim 00:10:02 We applied for an export permit, were refused. So we've decided to appeal to what's known as the CCPERB, which is the Canadian Cultural Property Export Review Board, and they're sort of the gatekeepers of what I would loosely term as Canadian culture. They sort of regulate the movement of artworks which, in their opinion, demonstrate outstanding significance and national importance to the Canadian mosaic. So we're in the process right now of we've made the application for appeal. I have written the statement for appeal to the CCPERB, and they will have a meeting, I believe, at the end of March, and then they'll determine whether or not the piece can receive a permit for export. If not, the permit is or pardon me. The painting is then offered to a Canadian museum for possible purchase, and if the museum in Canada wants to purchase it, they can do so. If not, the CCPERB will probably. I will hopefully issue the export permit. So my capacity in all this is as a consultant, not so much as a consultant on curating or offering advice on creating a collection, but more of a more of a consultant in the sense that we're trying to facilitate the purchase of this painting by an international client.
Nicole 00:11:43 So what's the criteria to have national cultural importance if that's the correct term? Let's clarify the correct term.
Jim 00:11:52 I'm glad you asked me that question, Nicole. It's pretty involved. The bottom line is that it's up to the discretion of the review board. That is the CCP, IRB. There is no sort of definitive answer to that question. It's their collective consensus, I guess, amongst them, amongst themselves as to what that means, open to interpretation. It's completely up to them. As an example, an auction house here in Vancouver just sold a painting by Gustav Cabot entitled Blue Irises. Not just sold, but we're going back maybe five years or so ago to a client In London, I believe it was so actually Commercial Gallery in London, and they applied to the review board for an export permit. They were turned down. They appealed and to a judicial review. They were successful in their appeal. From there it went to the federal court, I believe, and the federal Court sided with the initial decision made by CCP such that the painting was the export permit was not issued.
Jim 00:13:09 So the painting was offered to the Aigo Art Gallery of Ontario for possible purchase, which they did. They purchased the painting with the help of a program offered by the federal government known as the Movable Cultural Property Grant, which the public gallery can apply for to purchase such a painting which they did. So this painting, which was painted by a French artist in the late 19th century. no connection with Canada whatsoever. But the CCP determined that, yes, indeed, it has outstanding significance and national importance to the Canadian mosaic, and as such it has remained here in Canada. Now, Nicole, you're a lawyer. I can send you links to actually the auction house here in Vancouver. hired a lawyer to sort of argue its case. I can send you the link. The legal firm and their approach to it, etc.. It's very interesting reading. Very interesting indeed. So. So that's something that, as I say, I do as well.
Nicole 00:14:24 So if somebody owns, say like a group of seven or a Billy Reed sculpture or something.
Nicole 00:14:31 What I'm hearing is it's unlikely that they can sell it to someone outside of Canada.
Jim 00:14:36 Yes, I would, I would say that's probably true. It depends. there again on the interpretation made by the review board as to whether or not it has OSA.
Nicole 00:14:48 That's an interesting question because the cultural importance piece, you know, what about restraint of trade and property rights. And it is it's an interesting dichotomy of of issues.
Jim 00:15:03 In this particular case that I was talking about with my client, she, she does not want the painting to stay in Canada. She wants it to go to the clients in Europe. If the Eagle comes to her to purchase it, she can, you know, say, well, no, I don't I don't want to sell it to the Eagle. If the eagle wants to purchase it, they can certify it under CCPERB. In doing so, that certification allows for a tax relief tax benefit for the seller. So it's sort of a little bit of an incentive for her to sell to the ego because she gets the tax benefit.
Nicole 00:15:43 So what would be the reason why someone might want to purchase her in Europe versus an art gallery in Canada?
Jim 00:15:50 Well. The auction house example that I was that I just talked about in that particular case, it was the painting was purchased by a gallery commercial gallery in London, England. So they probably bought it for resale. In other words, they had a buyer somewhere and they were going to sell it to them. The taste that I'm talking about the client is a museum in Europe. They have a curatorial focus on works by this particular artist. As a matter of fact, the advisor to the museum is a world authority on artworks by this particular artist. So my client wants the. Wants the painting to go back to that that museum where she you know, she knows it'll be displayed. It'll be on exhibition. it'll be a focus of research for that particular artist. So it's, you know, it's not the typical being purchased by a commercial gallery for resale. It's going back to a public institution, in Europe.
Nicole 00:17:01 Those sound like favorable facts for your case.
Jim 00:17:04 Well, I hope so. We have a scheduled oral presentation, prior to making its decision, which will include the co-director of the museum, the owner, myself, and also the world authority on this particular artist, sort of in a little group chat, trying to convince her to, let this painting go.
Greg 00:17:31 So, Jim, that was a kind of a very unique case that I'm sure most of us didn't know this was required, nor should be necessarily. What are some interesting cases that you might have encountered over the years yourself in your appraisal history?
Jim 00:17:47 I actually made a little bit of a list here. I'm sort of going through it. One of the more interesting was that I did a Victoria Cross. This is a little bit outside of my 0specialty, but I was asked to do it and I did indeed do it. This was a Victoria Cross one by a Canadian soldier at Passchendaele during the First World War, one of very few cross Victoria Crosses that had been awarded to Canadian soldiers.
Jim 00:18:16 The owner lived in the US. He was actually a descendant of the soldier, and the Victoria Cross was actually in a safety deposit box here in Vancouver, and the owner wanted it to have it insured for insurance or appraise for insurance prior to being on display. City of Calgary City Hall so asked me to do it. I went down, inspected the piece. I had a look at it. It had everything that it needed to have. In other words, it was it was not a reproduction. It was not a fake. It was the original item and did the appraisal, of course, for insurance. And as far as I know, it went off to City Hall, City of Calgary for display. Now that was a little bit outside of my bailiwick, if you will. But I really enjoyed doing it because I had a little bit of prior knowledge, actually quite a bit of prior knowledge about the piece about the soldier who it was awarded to. Reviewed several books on this particular soldier, his history, background, etc. so he was a very, very cantankerous individual.
Jim 00:19:33 Not the kind of not the kind of person, you know, you'd like to invite to dinner, apparently very brusque and very, boisterous and, loud, according to the information I read. I'll just touch on a couple of others here. insurance appraisal. I had an appraisal for a to do a piece by Oscar Kane, very well known Canadian artist, member of Painters 11, I believe. He died in 1953. Used to do illustrations for Maclean's magazine. The late 40s, early 50s. A client's had purchased a piece here at auction. Took. It was a piece on paper. It was an ink on paper piece. Took it home, and he was taking the piece out of the frame and ripped it while he was doing so. So. So called me in and I didn't appraisal for insurance purposes. Obviously he had damaged it and decreased its value accordingly. You know, by doing so did the appraisal for insurance. Luckily, we were able to restore it. There are paper restorers here in Vancouver or able to do that sort of thing.
Jim 00:20:48 So it kind of all worked out in the end. Just a little note there. with Canadian insurance companies, they usually ask for appraisal for replacement cost. They assume that the piece has been lost. They're looking for replacement cost. In other words, to make the client whole again. Doing an appraisal for insurance in the US is completely different in the sense that you appraise for certain types of loss within the appraisal, and you include those in the appraisal, which allows the adjuster to kind of or the insurance agent or whomever to sort of make a determination as to just exactly how far they will go, give some ideas to, you know, where they are as, as far as making a decision to reimburse the client. And I'll just hit one more Olympic posters about seven years ago. Eight years ago, I believe, I was asked by the Surrey Foundation to travel to Annecy in France to view a collection of 3000 Olympic posters, which were stored in the basement of the Imperial Palace Hotel in Annecy.
Jim 00:22:00 And the reason being was that the Surrey Foundation was interested in perhaps acquiring part of the collection for exhibition here at one of the athletic facilities here in Surrey. And from there it was thought that it would travel to other, other locations throughout BC. I believe it must have happened during the Olympics. So that would be more than eight years ago. Of course, the owner of the collection was offering it for sale. He was actually the manager of the Imperial Palace Hotel in Annecy. And as I mentioned, had they had the collection stored in the basement of the hotel, also had some posters throughout the hotel, you know, in the hallways and the suites and that sort of thing. I went over, had a look, went down to the basement with my camera and looked at all these pieces. Extraordinary collection. I was there for about three days. I guess the Surrey Foundation looked after all my costs, travel costs and accommodation, etc. while I was there. So came back and reported to the Surrey Foundation.
Jim 00:23:08 And from what I understand, they weren't able to sort of negotiate the funding to purchase at least part of the collection. I don't think they were going to purchase all the collection, but maybe purchase just part of it. So not sure what happened after that, but that's another kind of interesting little, little thing.
Greg 00:23:27 Well, Jim, what are some tips and best practices you have for people who own valuable or fine art to preserve its value now and for their estates?
Jim 00:23:36 Well, it depends what it is. Greg, if we're looking at an oil on canvas painting, keep it out of the sunlight, keep it out of direct sunlight, clean it every once in a while. By cleaning, I mean, have it cleaned by a restorer. There are companies, actually, that will store fine art in a vault for you if you will sort of keep them in pristine condition for resale at a later date. More as an investment than anything else. But generally speaking, as I say with an oil painting, keep it out of the sunlight.
Jim 00:24:09 Items that are on paper, lithographs, for example. They're also susceptible to degradation from UV, UV light from sunlight. They tend to fade over time. So there again, keep them out of the sunlight. But just generally, items on paper. Store them flat in a flat file. If you're not interested in hanging them up, that sort of thing. But I guess just it's basically just common sense. Don't, you know, don't sort of, treat them with respect, I guess, is really what I'm getting down to now as far as, as states go. I'm just not sure what sort of context you're, you're referring to, Greg, as far.
Greg 00:24:48 Well, I think when you're looking at value for the estates potentially would be you might be considering such thing as insurance appraisals because of course, the estate would be diminished by both by losing the art and potentially the value of the art, you know, and some beneficiary may have been gifted the piece or such. I think also that does go to the person that's living, having now possession of it, then maintaining the value.
Greg 00:25:14 So in the future we know art goes up and down depending on certain cycles in the economy, etc. but certainly, for instance, there might be issues with what market you're trying to sell it in and locale, because some things are worth more on the East Coast than they would be here or in certain galleries or in certain collections, whereas us we now see things like very fine China from England, 12 piece settings really don't hold much value because nobody's got the space, the space for these items anymore. So I think it's just along those lines of, of, you know, keeping track of provenance. Don't throw the paperwork out.
Jim 00:25:52 Oh yes.
Greg 00:25:53 These sorts of things.
Jim 00:25:55 Yes, very much so indeed.
Nicole 00:25:56 We had an interesting estate. she was a very noted sculptor, and we ended up with a substantial amount of items. And I remember the removal and the.
Greg 00:26:08 The documentation, the storage. And Jim assisted us actually on that. And you made a lovely catalogues of the work of the artist as well as the artist was an instructor and teacher and a lot of student works.
Greg 00:26:22 Yes, we're in there. So it was well preserved and that was a ranked Canadian artist, as I recall. So that's exactly what you're talking about, keeping the cultural integrity for Canadian culture, I guess, from what you spoke about earlier, but that you could make those catalogues while the person is living. Yes. I mean, it's more of a curator idea and then tying it to value. It was very nice. And that also allows others that that if the collection were to be sold, but the family may want an itemized display of that where you could make five versions of that and pass that out to people. Yes. You know, to remember the art.
Jim 00:27:02 Yes, indeed.
Nicole 00:27:03 Yeah. And then someone in our city, famous collector Bob Rennie, I think he has a very substantial So collection. It would be interesting to know what the best practice would be for storage and preserving it, and what he plans to do with respect to succession.
Jim 00:27:21 And Bob's sort of a special case, to tell you the truth.
Jim 00:27:24 He's, I haven't seen any of his collection. I've just sort of heard about it and maybe seen images online. But he's focused as curatorial, focused mostly on contemporary work that generally just generally doesn't include paintings. Could include anything, really. You know, when you have a contemporary artist, expressing a or creating a, an artwork, that would be a project I would really enjoy doing was, would be to do a catalogue of his work, of his work, with his collection. He seems to be more kind of, his interests or his tastes, I guess, or more. More sort of in the, the very Wide contemporary range, let's say, which is good, you know, which is great because it brings it brings international work to Vancouver.
Greg 00:28:17 So that actually might require more than 1 or 2 specialists, because it would be such a broad variety of work that somebody may not have, have, have this, this specialty for any large portion of, of that collection. At what point does a collector require perhaps a curator, you know, so it's such a big collection that it more or less has to be maintained and make sure there's insurances on it.
Jim 00:28:42 Most of the collectors that I have worked with, they just purchase what they like. They have no curatorial focus whatsoever. And I've mentioned to them that, you know, hey Bob, maybe you should, you know, sort of consider focusing on one particular area for your collection. But, you know, what I say falls on deaf ears. The people that just, you know, have the have the financial resources and just purchase what they like. They're all over the map as far as work. Tell me the truth.
Nicole 00:29:15 Well, another famous collector in the city, Michael Odin. He. He created his own gallery.
Jim 00:29:22 He did? Yes.
Nicole 00:29:23 He would have. Certainly. Professionals, I imagine that.
Jim 00:29:27 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think he obviously did have input from. I think Ian Thom at the Vancouver Art Gallery was very instrumental in helping him and helping him create his collection.
Nicole 00:29:40 So it's a huge responsibility and certainly something that if you've got if you're so lucky to be able to build such a valuable collection, you know, certainly something you need to think about in terms of what your goals are for passing that along and what that looks like when you've got a, I imagine, an art collection that substantially, you'd have to think very carefully about what your legacy goals are.
Nicole 00:30:06 And it's very interesting. So what are any final tips you can give to listeners who are maybe collectors or owners of art, and what they might think about in terms of their estates.
Jim 00:30:18 Having their collections appraised, of course, for estate purposes, for equitable distribution. Very important. I think it's important to have that done prior to death, if you will, maintaining the collection, the integrity of the collection, maintaining the homogeneity of the collection, keeping the collection in good shape, if you will. Maintaining, documenting provenance and maintaining provenance. Any documentation you have to support. Provenance. Extremely important, but that's generally about it.
Greg 00:30:48 Well, Jim, thank you for being with us today. And where can people locate you or get A hold of you?
Jim 00:30:54 My website. Finlay fine Art appraisals. My office is here at home in Surrey. You can contact me by phone or email, text me, etc..
Nicole 00:31:04 Okay. Well, Jim, thank you so much. It's been really interesting and we really appreciate your expertise for our listeners.
Greg 00:31:09 You're welcome. Thank you very much.
Jim 00:31:11 Thanks.
Nicole 00:31:12 This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual, legal, financial, or tax advice. Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Your Estate Matters. If you like this podcast, make sure to follow it on your podcast platform of choice.
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