Episode 44 - Why Mental Illness Should Change the Way You Plan Your Estate with Liz Charyna
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In this powerful episode of Your Estate Matters, Nicole and Greg sit down with Liz Charyna, Executive Director of Pathways Serious Mental Illness Society. Charyna addresses an often overlooked aspect of estate planning: considerations for mental illness. From navigating stigma and treatment gaps to preparing legal documents like representation agreements and trusts, Liz offers practical and compassionate insight for families facing serious mental health challenges.
What is the difference between mental health and serious mental illness? How can estate planning provide stability and peace of mind for caregivers and loved ones? And why is early incapacity planning one of the most overlooked, yet vital, steps in supporting those we love? Tune in to explore the human side of legacy planning in a conversation that is both eye-opening and deeply needed.
Nicole 00:00:02 Hello and welcome to your Estate Matters with your host, my colleague Greg Brennand and myself, Nicole Garton of Heritage Trust.
Greg 00:00:09 Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy.
Nicole 00:00:16 If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow. With us today on Your Estate Matters is Liz Charyna, executive director, Pathways Serious Mental Illness Society. Liz is an expert in leadership, non-profit management, partnership development and team building. Liz has previously worked with the Canadian Hemochromatosis Society Plan, The Plan Lifetime Advocacy Network as a mentor, and social networks, Coquitlam First Nation Fund Development and language revitalization, and the Coquitlam Volunteer connections and event planning. Liz, thank you so much for being here with us today to discuss pathways, serious mental illness society and supporting people and families living with mental illness in our communities. So tell us about yourself and how you got into this journey of the nonprofit sector and what inspired you to join Pathways Serious Mental Illness Society as Executive Director? Thank you.
Liz 00:01:29 Well, I'm very happy to be here. So thank you so much for your invitation. And yeah, I think at an early age, I knew that I wanted to help people, and I ended up in a career in nonprofit in lots of different organizations. But coming to pathways was wonderful. I was actually invited by two of the board members who knew of my work at previous nonprofits, and so I, I just jumped in. I thought it was a great opportunity to be doing work that I had done in the past, and also meeting more families.
Greg 00:02:03 What resources does pathway serious mental illness society offer to families and to individuals with serious mental health diagnosis.
Liz 00:02:13 So pathways is a peer support model. So we are offering education and support, advocacy and information to families who have loved ones with serious mental illness. So families get to meet other like moms and dads and sisters and brothers and spouses who have somebody in their life with a serious mental illness through our support groups, through our 1 to 1 support, and through our family to family education classes.
Liz 00:02:42 Plus, we also do lectures and workshops on topics around serious mental illness, just helping people be more informed and also more connected so that they know that they're not alone.
Nicole 00:02:55 So in your experience, what are common misconceptions people have about people living with serious mental illness?
Liz 00:03:01 I think there's many. I think there's a misconception that people with serious mental illness, especially schizophrenia or other mental illnesses like that, are violent when actually we know that most people with serious mental illness are more of victims of violence. I think there's a lot of stigma around serious mental illness that maybe you can see that somebody has a serious mental illness when really they are invisible. And with the stats, we all know people with serious mental illness in our families, in our workplaces, in our schools, everywhere. I think sometimes two people are just not sure what to do when they think about a serious mental illness. As an illness, it's a bit complicated or tricky to think about our brains and how they're broken. It's easier if somebody has broken their arm or has some other illness that you have some familiarity with or something.
Liz 00:04:02 But so I think there's misconceptions around that. And I think a big misconception too, is that you can't thrive as a person with a serious mental illness. And we know that you can. So there's so many stories of people getting the right treatment, the right support and thriving. We just had our annual luncheon or charity luncheon, and we had a video showing a mom and a daughter and their journey through bipolar and how pathways helped them, especially helped the mom relate to their her daughter. But her daughter is a person who lives with bipolar and she's doing her PhD at UBC. She's got the right medication, she's got good support, and she's learned a lot about herself and her mom's learned, and her parents have learned a lot about it, too. So, yeah, she's thriving so people can thrive.
Nicole 00:04:56 Quick question just to clarify things, what do we define as serious mental illness. And what would be the you mentioned the stats. Like what percentage of the population of people would have that.
Liz 00:05:08 A serious mental illness is something that you need treatment for.
Liz 00:05:12 So if it's depression, it's persistent depression that's lasts more than two weeks a month. It's ongoing. And if it's a serious mental illness like schizophrenia or bipolar, you really do need treatment. You need medication. So whereas mental health, you may be able to change your mood by doing aromatherapy or yoga. That may be helpful if you have a serious mental illness, but you probably need more than that.
Nicole 00:05:42 And how many people would encounter that?
Liz 00:05:45 One of the stats I do know is that 1 in 100 Canadians have schizophrenia, which I think is quite a big number. And then if you think about even depression and anxiety, I think all of us know somebody with depression and anxiety. So numbers are high.
Greg 00:06:01 And this has been my experience over the many years, is sometimes in the families with bipolar and schizophrenia, it may not just be the child, but the parent. Like, it might repeat in the generations or with the other family members. And it becomes, I guess, that much more difficult because there's not necessarily a stable person in the family to support them.
Liz 00:06:26 That's right. Or there's lack of insight too. Right. Because if people haven't been diagnosed or haven't had support, then you know the same patterns of how you relate to each other. Continue. And maybe it's not a good way.
Greg 00:06:39 What advice do you have for the caregivers and families with loved ones facing serious mental illness.
Liz 00:06:45 Well certainly that there is help available, that there's support available and there's other people going through the same thing out there. So for us, a pathway, serious mental illness, society, that is what we do. We connect people with other family members and give support. We have a really great education program called the Family to Family course that helps people learn about serious mental illness, learn about treatment, learn about how to communicate with their loved one, how to take care of themselves as a caregiver. So certainly learning more and connecting with others. Honestly, so many people feel alone and isolated when they have somebody so close to them with a serious mental illness, and hopefully that person is getting treatment.
Liz 00:07:35 But even the way you relate, what happens, yeah, in the relationship, it affects everybody, right?
Greg 00:07:42 And isn't there a great deal of frustration with them not realizing this has been going on for whatever period of time? Right. And they've just been judging the person differently, not knowing that they're, you know, not able to function that way.
Liz 00:07:55 Yeah. You know what? Thanks for mentioning that. Because there's two things there. There's not understanding the person's serious mental illness, like as a caregiver, as somebody in the family. Certainly that is something that happens. The other thing that happens is the person with the serious mental illness may have another illness called an agnosia, which gives them lack of insight that they themselves have an illness. So now you have a person with bipolar or schizophrenia who doesn't believe that anything is going on for them. And so they're not going to choose treatment because they don't believe anything is happening. So there's a lot of things that can be happening within the family, within relationships like that.
Nicole 00:08:40 And that's quite common, isn't it?
Liz 00:08:42 Yeah. And agnosia is really common. We actually had a lecture in January. So it's on our website with Doctor Randall Whyte from UBC, who did a really good explanation about Anna's agnosia.
Nicole 00:08:55 So I didn't give you the heads up, but what are your thoughts? Alberta has, I guess, controversial proposed legislation for involuntary treatment. Do you have thoughts about that?
Liz 00:09:08 Yeah. You know, we have many families who say that treatment saved their loved one's life. And especially if you're a person who has an idea, you're never going to choose treatment, right? Because you don't believe that you need it. So I know that as an organization, we think it's important that people get the treatment that they need. And certainly how you go about it is probably a bit complex, but the idea of having treatment available for people, I think is really important.
Nicole 00:09:48 I'm in BC we actually sort of indirectly have involuntary treatment because under the Mental Health Act, if there's immediate risk, immediate physical risk of harm to an individual or another community member, you can be held on.
Nicole 00:10:02 You'll know this 30 day periods of time. And then you go up to a three person panel. When I was practicing law, I actually represented people that were basically trying to bust out of the Mental Health Act, and I would go and advocate for them. And these poor people clearly had no insight like it was even for me as their advocate. And I would always do my very best. But you could see that they were living at risk, and clearly didn't have insight in the fact that they had a chemical imbalance that was that was putting them at risk. So it is a controversial thing, though, because we also respect the autonomy and rights of self-determination as adults, and people should be able to live at risk if that's what they choose. And so how do we bridge that line?
Liz 00:10:49 It is complex and layered, for sure, but I know that we have families that would very much advocate to make sure that their loved one get the treatment, whether their loved one would want to choose it or not.
Greg 00:11:04 Well, I know I went to a speaking engagement maybe a few years ago, and it was a person from the North Shore that was bipolar and had this series of searches over the years with different therapists and different interventions, and found one that they liked for whatever reason. But then I guess certain advancements in medication found a medication that worked for her and just made a miraculous difference in her life. And that's, you know, that's encouraging.
Liz 00:11:33 Yes.
Greg 00:11:34 That because, you know, we have that term, though, they're off their meds because their behavior is becoming aggressive or stronger or just repetitive that we see with people we deal with sometimes. And, and you just think, well, you know, this is not them usually. You know for whatever there's or maybe it's just stressing them on a particular day.
Nicole 00:11:56 we've, we've had clients with serious mental health diagnoses where for years, Years they've lived like with, with the stable, I guess chemical situation. And then, you know, 20 years in they have an episode.
Nicole 00:12:15 So it is interesting how it can really vary. So speaking of that, what role does community education play in preparing individuals and families facing these serious mental health challenges?
Liz 00:12:28 Thank you. Well, I think even what you were just saying is really important, right? Like people may be stable on medication and they may choose not to take it anymore because they're feeling so good, or the medication may change, whatever. Things may change. So as community members, as caregivers, as people who are in community, you know, being able to recognize, knowing, like Greg, what you said, knowing what the person is like when they're well, and being able to recognize when they're not well is really important. So having some education around that is really important. And again I touched on it a little bit. But our Family to Family program is curriculum from Nami. The National Alliance on Mental Illness and Pathways has the license to deliver that in BC. It's an eight week program that really takes people through understanding different mental illnesses and treatment, and even how to make a crisis plan before a crisis.
Liz 00:13:34 And there's just lots of really good information, even advanced communication skills, which is helpful to in relationship. But yeah, having community education is really important. And even like having forums like this where you can talk about serious mental illness, reduce the stigma and be able to understand that serious mental illness is an illness like any other illness. And so to be able to be open to talking about it and not being afraid or not being uncomfortable. That's really important.
Greg 00:14:08 So, you know, as parents age, this becomes a serious thing. How does serious mental illness impact estate planning for both individuals affected and their families?
Liz 00:14:20 I have talked to some of our family members about what has been helpful for them, and certainly they've talked about the importance of having a trust in their will, where they can know that not just the disbursements, but taking care of their loved one and being flexible. So that's been really important to families having trusts and certainly dealing with a team of people that have some insight into serious mental illness.
Liz 00:14:51 Because certainly I think families are all a bit complex, aren't they? But if you have a loved one with a serious mental illness, that's just a whole other complexity. So that is really something to take into consideration and to think about when you're looking for somebody to help you with your estate.
Greg 00:15:11 And I think the stress increases for that family member when they're down to one parent and aging and their child's 40 or 50, but can get along in the community with a little assistance. We see that question come up a lot, like how would you deal with them, you know, supporting them as a professional trust company and such. So it's a great concern to parents.
Liz 00:15:34 It certainly is. And so doing the estate planning, having the plan ahead of time just gives everybody peace of mind and also certainly peace of mind for the people around that person. So if there's other siblings or, you know, other close friends, whoever's in their like network of support.
Nicole 00:15:53 Yeah. We certainly have beneficiaries of trusts we administer that have serious mental health diagnoses.
Nicole 00:15:59 And you know it's good to have a multidisciplinary team. And as you'll see, there's long periods of time where they actually will live quite well and safe, and then there will be periods of time where they have more health challenges. And so it's a dynamic situation. So just can you talk about the importance of incapacity planning documents, for example, powers of attorney or representation agreements. Do you see those as being important in helping families?
Liz 00:16:29 Yeah, again, I spoke to some of our family members and they said, absolutely, those are important documents. Power of attorney. We just also had a workshop on representation agreements. So getting more information about all of those advanced directives and power of attorneys and representation agreements, all of those documents, I think are really helpful for families.
Greg 00:16:53 Nicole, can you explain what representation agreements are? Because it's a bit of a technical term?
Nicole 00:16:58 Sure. So in British Columbia, everybody who's 19 years or older should have three basic documents. So the will is obviously if you pass away, who's your executor? Who gets your estate? But then there's two important incapacity documents.
Nicole 00:17:10 So what if you're alive but incapable for some reason? Maybe you've had an accident or a stroke, or maybe you've had a psychosis situation and you're being held under the Mental Health Act. Who is going to manage your affairs? So in British Columbia, the two documents are what we call the enduring power of attorney. So that's anything to do with finances or legal matters. And then in BC, the health care document, we call it the representation agreement for healthcare. So that allows you to appoint a decision maker if you're unable to make decisions for yourself. And you can also document your health care wishes in that, in that document. So there is two types of representation agreements. So the one that's most commonly used is called a section nine, which is if you have full capacity to do estate planning you do that which means you've got the power of attorney for basically money, the representation agreement for health. If you have reduced mental capacity, like maybe you've got a developmental delay or other reason why you're not able to have full cognition.
Nicole 00:18:15 A lesser one is called a section seven agreement, and that allows you to point somebody to make basic financial transactions and basic health care decisions. It's kind of like a light a representation agreement late. So but, you know, it's funny because people often think, oh, I have to get my well done. And, you know, half of Canadians have done nothing. So yes, we should get that done. But certainly in midlife the most important thing you can do is actually the incapacity documents. Right. Because that's it's much more likely you're going to have an accident or otherwise not be able to manage your affairs and actually not be living, and you can get them done actually, quite inexpensively. There's really good notaries, there's lawyers, there's certainly there's lots of free clinics where you can get a representation agreement done for free. So it shouldn't be cost, shouldn't be a barrier because getting this done doesn't have to be expensive. And the benefit of it is if you have these basic documents in place, it's going to save your family so much, so much difficulty.
Nicole 00:19:15 So it's funny, even with our own kids, when they turn 19, we actually make them do a power of attorney representation agreement because unfortunately, we see what happens if there is an accident or something happens and you don't have it. It's a very expensive, onerous thing. So we even make our kids, even very young, do those basic documents.
Liz 00:19:38 That's great.
Greg 00:19:40 So how can nonprofit organizations collaborate with legal professionals to support families integrating health considerations into their estate plans.
Liz 00:19:50 As a nonprofit, in making sure that our families have all of the information, we love to collaborate with businesses and other community services to get the word out there, too. So, like I mentioned, we do have lectures and workshops. So working together to collaborate with, you know, estate planners and wills and representation agreements and all of that good information is definitely something that we're interested in doing. And also, we as a nonprofit that works with families, we have access to families who have experience. So connecting with estate planning groups to mine some of the information from those family members is something that we can also do.
Liz 00:20:38 Connecting with that, encouraging legal professionals to sit on boards of nonprofits and get first hand experience, and certainly collaborating again to provide those workshops and things, information on estate planning and trusts and all of the I mean, and this agreement. I love that you do that, Nicole, with your kids to make sure that they have those forms in place, because I think sometimes too. We talk about it once, but we don't talk about it again. So just that consistency and making sure that that's the norm for people.
Nicole 00:21:15 So how has your leadership, a nonprofit and your exposure to this area of people and families facing major mental illness? How does it affect your perspective on the intersection of health and planning?
Liz 00:21:27 We're all on a continuum of being healthy and not being healthy. And what does that look like? Does it look like not mentally healthy or not physically healthy? So having a team of people around you, having people like I said that know you when you're well and can recognize when you're not well and be able to talk about that.
Liz 00:21:48 So that's like whether you're in a family or whether you're at work to be able to say, you know, to recognize that and say that and have kind of be courageous and have those conversations and not avoid it. I think that helps to combat the stigma. And if we're all talking about it and all aware of it, I think we're all going to be healthier.
Nicole 00:22:10 Do you think the stigma is getting better? Do you feel like, I don't know, it's hard for us to have perspective, I guess, because we serve so many families. So we, I guess, are in the thick of it. But do you feel that the general public is getting more informed and aware?
Liz 00:22:24 That's a good question. I want to say yes. I kind of think yes, maybe. But then there's still, I think, lots of learning to be done.
Nicole 00:22:35 And if there's listeners listening to this, they want to support your organization. I hear there's a potential board opportunity, but are there ways that people can volunteer? Are there ways that people can donate? How can people support pathways?
Liz 00:22:48 Yes.
Liz 00:22:49 Thank you so much. There's so many ways that you can support whether it's I think people often think about volunteering at an event or something. But really, I mean, if you have marketing experience and other expertise in areas that are helpful to us. Lots of opportunities to contribute your expertise. And then also we do give out tax receipts. We're a charity. So donations are accepted on our website. So it's pathwayssmi.org. And we have a Donate Now button. We also have an annual charity luncheon. So we just had it for this year. But we'll be having another one next year and we'll be looking for sponsors for that. Also next year will be the 30th anniversary of Pathways Serious Mental Illness Society, so we'd love to have more participation from sponsors for that. And so if there's any ways that people want to support us, that would be great. Also, I mean just spreading awareness. So we do have Facebook and Instagram sharing our post and talking about serious mental illness. Really, we want families, want people to know about our services.
Liz 00:24:01 We offer our free services for support and education. They're really good beneficial services, and so letting more people know about it is key.
Greg 00:24:12 Terrific. Thanks, Liz.
Liz 00:24:14 Thank you so much.
Nicole 00:24:16 This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual, legal, financial, or tax advice. Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Your Estate Matters. If you like this podcast, make sure to follow it on your podcast platform of choice.
Greg 00:24:38 Whether you are planning your own estate or you're acting as executor for somebody else's heritage, trust can help. Partner with Heritage Trust to protect your family, your assets, and your legacy.
Nicole 00:24:49 If you would like more information about Heritage Trust, please visit our website at Heritage Trust Company.
Greg 00:25:03 This podcast is produced by Podfather Creative.
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