Episode 38 - How Cultural Traditions Shape Estate Planning with Perminder Tung
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In today's episode, Nicole and Greg welcome estate lawyer Perminder Tung to discuss the intersection of cultural traditions and estate planning in Canada. Focusing on challenges within the South Asian community, Perminder shares insights on inheritance customs, legal rights, and the impact of British Columbia’s Wills, Estates and Succession Act. The conversation highlights the importance of open family dialogue, proactive planning, and community education to ensure fair and equitable estate distribution. Listeners are encouraged to seek professional advice and consider cultural factors in their own estate planning.
Nicole 00:00:02 Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters with your hosts, my colleague Greg Brennand and myself, Nicole Garton of Heritage Trust.
Greg 00:00:09 Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy.
Nicole 00:00:16 If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow. With us today in Your Estate Matters is Perminder Tung, a partner at Lindsay Kenney LLP and the co-leader of the Estate Planning and Litigation Practice Group at LK Law. Perminder assists beneficiaries who've been disinherited or unfairly treated in relation to the distribution of a family estate. These claims can be emotional and difficult, as they often involve a beneficiary feeling they have not been treated fairly, or that the executor is not fulfilling their duties and responsibilities. These are delicate issues for families. Perminder school is to assist families with a resolution while avoiding costly court conflicts. If the case must go to court, Perminder and his team in law are skilled litigators who are prepared to advance your rights.
Nicole 00:01:16 Perminder is a passionate about this area of law and is a regular contributor to presentations and online content to educate the public. Thank you so much for being with us today on your estate matters.
Perminder 00:01:32 Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Nicole 00:01:33 So tell us about yourself and how you have arrived at your role as a senior partner with Lindsey Kenney.
Perminder 00:01:39 Sure, yeah. Depending on how far we want to go back, I went to law school in a dual program where I obtained an American law degree and a Canadian law degree in a three year intensive program. The goal was to become a corporate lawyer in New York. I worked in my first summer in the States and started to really miss home, which was Vancouver, and I got a position at a large firm in Vancouver for second year in articling, and it was the financial crisis of ’08-‘09 markets crashing, and corporate solicitor work seemed to be dying at that time, or positions weren't really available. And I reached out to Lindsay Kenney, LK Law, for a position in their litigation department and from then building out a litigation career reminder.
Greg 00:02:21 How do different cultural traditions around inheritance and family dynamics impact estate planning?
Perminder 00:02:28 That's a really good question. I'll first start by saying I went into this area of law, meaning estate litigation, out of sheer interest in a connection to my community. So my community is I'm Punjabi Sikh and we have a large or South Asian community. We have a large South Asian community in the Fraser Valley and in British Columbia. And there were interesting things that I saw growing up. And we have this law that basically provides a sword or creates an opportunity for women that have been disinherited to challenge their estate. So as my career was growing and I and I saw people marketing in this area, I started to really understand the connection to my community. Right. And the stories that of people that were coming in and I was having consultations with them. I started to say to myself, wow, this is a this is really happening out there. The community is holding on to some old world traditions and BC law conflicts with those traditions.
Perminder 00:03:25 And these people don't know. The community doesn't know their rights. Women don't know their rights. The people doing the planning. There's a conflict with what goals they're trying to achieve in their estate. So I started to look deeper into this and started to create content and educate the community on the issues.
Nicole 00:03:42 So tell us a little bit about that culture. Like what are the inheritance customs?
Perminder 00:03:46 Yeah. So one of the things I started to see was that some families would attempt to leave their daughters out of their inheritance and provide the full estate, their full real estate portfolios or their businesses to their sons. So they were preferring boys over girls when it related to their estate.
Greg 00:04:06 And also does the dynamic change, because we know there's a lot of multigenerational living in the community. So often, from what I've seen from estates I've administered, there might have been a parent that's favoring, as you say, perhaps an older son. And the real properties are inter owned and getting loaned. And then there's the death of the matriarch or patriarch and the family just all of a sudden, because you have spouses involved to get gets into some big arguments about what was intended and what it looks like currently.
Perminder 00:04:42 That's right. You know, intellectually, I couldn't help myself but want to dig deeper into the history to find out why do they do this? Where does this come from? Because I'm a Canadian born boy. I just have a brother. So there's two. So we don't really have that issue in our own household. But speaking to relatives, hearing the stories over tea from my mom, and then as a lawyer, hearing the folks come in with their complaints and seeking consultations about their rights, I couldn't help myself but want to dig deeper into the history. So, as you might know, there's a large South Asian Punjabi Sikh community in Canada. The two major cities seem to be in the Fraser Valley, so Surrey, Abbotsford and in Ontario, Brampton, Mississauga. These are these are significant communities. A million plus populations in both cities and regions. So, you know, I talk to my father and ask him about these things. And he said, look, back home in India, a lot of the Punjabi Sikh community comes from Punjab.
Perminder 00:05:40 It's a state, right? Northern India, in that state, it's kind of like the breadbasket of India, right? And by that, a lot of them are farmers. So you might, you know, think right now. Oh yeah, that's making sense because you heard about those large farmers protests that were happening in India some years ago. Huge influential community even in in India. What happens in farming communities, as my father explained to me. And this makes sense. You would be raising your family. You own the farm. The farm provides for multigenerational, you know, living and wealth to families. When it's time to marry off your children, you'd be looking to marry your daughter off to hopefully another family with a farm, right? And that's what would happen if they were in Punjab. And if they had a farm, they'd have land. Land provided security for your daughter. And the relationship was you're being married off to a family that already has a farm that will become part of your estate.
Perminder 00:06:35 Line your children. Right. I'm starting to think about times of feudal Europe as well. Right. I didn't study feudal European history, but you would try to set your family up and, you know, the the estate would be the farm, the land. You would try to keep it within the male line. Right. And those traditions as those communities from Punjab, India made their way into Canada. Those traditions seem to follow here and it would come into conflict. And now the interesting thing is my parents immigrated in the 70s. I'm a child of the early 80s, and we're not farmers, right? My father wasn't a farmer. My mom was a maid. My dad was a courier. We knew farming communities here. And I'm, I guess, the first generational professional. Right child? So I didn't really see these things myself. Right. And some people who are not farmers, I make this point to say some people who are not farmers still carried on some of those beliefs because it came from back home.
Perminder 00:07:33 So you may be dealing with a business owner like a tile company, a manufacturing company. They don't farm. But because of those beliefs that they had back home in India and they may have one son, two daughters, they still carry on those traditions even though it's not related to the farm.
Greg 00:07:49 Right. I would reflect that the European standard was second son's got nothing. The eldest got the farm and that's why they often immigrated. Because they were going to be an employee for their brother. Right. So, you know, USA and Canada looked pretty good. That's right. When they were immigrating.
Nicole 00:08:06 So I understand South Asian families do have significant agricultural interests though, like I understand blueberry and cranberry farms, and they often generate quite significant wealth. Do those traditions. Are they continuing with even Canadian or in Sikh farmers?
Perminder 00:08:24 That's really interesting. So what I'm seeing as in the last 3 or 4 years where part of my practice, I started with an approach of educating the community. So I was putting out a lot of video content showing the hypocrisy of some of these things that the community was doing to start the conversation.
Perminder 00:08:40 So it wasn't traditional legal marketing in the way people might think were, you know, a few of us standing there in a suit with the words estate litigation underneath. Right. It was storytelling of the things that our community is doing. That is unfair, prejudicial. Not the way you want to raise your daughters. Right. Because I love so many of these stories, right? Because I would get the phone calls of a 4050 year old professional South Asian female saying, I'm successful. I don't need the money from my family. I'm being told my parents are leaving me out of my estate, right out of my parents estate. I have one brother. We've been equal in terms of the way we've treated our parents. In fact, my parents rely on me more for medical appointments and everything than they do my brother. My brother's not really great to them and I'm being left out. And so she would tell me these stories of growing up in a home where it was almost like they were grooming her for not challenging the estate, giving better meat and better food to her brother, and not preferring her for even education.
Perminder 00:09:45 She paid for a lot of her own education, being seen as a little bit of a liability rather than an asset. So these stories, they're so interesting, right? It goes deeper than just the inheritance. The feelings that I started to have was that. And I have a daughter. Right. Is that these. And this professional female would say to me, I'm in a if I'm in a boardroom with a bunch of men, I feel inferior. And that comes from a place of me being a child, being taught these things. Right. Or maybe not outright, but, you know, through inference. Right. And her perception. So yeah, it's it's complicated. It's interesting intellectually as well. I've got so many other stories I can tell you about the kind of things that I've seen in other communities and ours as well, like adoption. Right. That's another interesting adoption of convenience.
Nicole 00:10:31 So tell me about that.
Perminder 00:10:32 Sure. So another example of so Wesa, right, is the act that we're talking about.
Perminder 00:10:39 And the people that that have rights first, a spouse, second children. well, children can include adopted children. Of course it can. Right. The community. The South Asian community. One of the things that I've noticed that they would do or did do, especially during the 70s and 80s. It still kind of happens now is let me give you an example. So for a person who immigrates to Canada, they're setting up their life. They may have left brothers or sisters back home in India. They'd get a phone call from their sibling in India who has multiple children and will say, how are things in Canada? And the person would say, great, there's so much opportunity. It's exactly what they said. It is right. Land of opportunity. And they'd say, look, I've got three kids. Can you take one of my children? Can you adopt one of my children so that we can set a seed in Canada? Right. And examples would be and this one, male or female, didn't really matter.
Perminder 00:11:33 People would adopt whoever the scenario required them to ask for that allowed adoption. So the family would take on a family member, right. Usually a first sibling. Right. Children. So they would come to Canada. It was really what I. The word that I use is an adoption of convenience, right? Meaning it's not that you're actually adopting for them to become your own child. You're doing it as a favor for your sibling in India so that you can get the immigration status right and then start their line in this country. And so many families have come to Canada this way. So that person sets their themselves up in their 20s and then will sponsor their family to come arrive in Canada. Much of the South Asian community success has come that way.
Nicole 00:12:18 That's so interesting. I had no idea.
Perminder 00:12:20 Yeah. So this is one that I haven't created a ton of content about yet because it is very controversial. Meaning, here's where the controversy comes. First off, that person who gets adopted into the House in Canada might help them a lot with things.
Perminder 00:12:35 Might have worked on a farm, kind of trying to pay them back for the favor that they're doing, and they may have contributed to the growth of their asset, either the farm or a business. Right, as a way of, let's say, an equal trade off. You don't speak in those ways in those households. But let's just say from a legal analysis, right, that that's might it might be what one says. They successfully get independent sponsor their family. They come here. In some ways this case could be one. If that adopted child makes a claim that they're disinherited from the Canadian family's estate, they might double recover, right? Because they they'll still likely and I will watch and witness them pursue their actual real family's estate in India as well. So I've been thinking about it. When this case comes, there's absolutely going to be a double kind of tort analysis of a double recovery. And I wonder how that would go, because we do know our B.C. courts kind of bend over backwards, right.
Perminder 00:13:33 For the disinherited child to achieve fairness. Right.
Greg 00:13:38 So and typically when we talked about adopted there's sort of two sides of adopted in to the new family usually severs you for inheritance purposes from the old family. I think California is an exception. It's got some weird rules, but in Canada that would be the case unless you could still put them in your will and it would be valid. But on an intestacy. An adopted out child would not typically inherit. Right. So that is unique.
Nicole 00:14:03 So does the female child get a dowry.
Perminder 00:14:07 Great question. So dowry is one that as a tradition has followed from India here, but less and less. You don't season them so much in the modern marriages. But while I was growing up, the 80s, the 90s, you would see it happen. You'd see a gift of cars, some jewelry, that kind of stuff. People were even openly demanding it. So the male side during the wedding would say, ‘what are you going to give with your daughter?’ Right.
Perminder 00:14:29 Didn't really happen in my marriage. Not something that really comes up. They'll do it out of the goodness of their heart. Some things, but most of the male sides are demanding it these days. That's something you see less and less of now.
Nicole 00:14:39 So the weddings with, you know, 500, even a thousand people. Are those still common?
Perminder 00:14:45 They are.
Perminder 00:14:46 You know, what's interesting is I thought during Covid because all of that went to the wayside. I thought, okay, this will be a reset with the big South Asian wedding. I don't think people are going to want to spend that kind of money anymore. And they realize that they can have limited gatherings, and they can be quaint and nice and sweet and those things, it's come back with a vengeance. They're doing them bigger and better than they did.
Nicole 00:15:07 And they're often like multi-day affairs.
Perminder 00:15:09 That's right. Yeah. They're ceremonial. That's right. Leading up to the ultimate wedding.
Nicole 00:15:13 So it's not just the South Asian communities of do you see other cultures with similar ideas?
Perminder 00:15:19 Yeah, absolutely.
Perminder 00:15:20 So I've got a number of cases and consultations that I've had with, I'd say different ethnic communities. Right. So the Asian community, I've seen it in the Dutch community, it's often just the preferring the male line, which is intellectually something I want to study and understand better as well. we can kind of assume where it probably comes from. There's also just the preference over one child over the other. So we see sort of the black sheep child, the drug addicted child, which happens in all communities where these Wesa claims come up right where you're preferring one child over the other. Who helped you more in your older years versus one that may not have done anything right? It's a very interesting area of the law, very fact dependent, a lot of storytelling. And when it's something that happens over so many, so many years, right, pulling in witnesses becomes really, really important and telling that story.
Greg 00:16:13 Right, right. And is there an issue, especially with, with the original immigrants of just the literacy, of understanding what the document is, what it means? You know, we were approached last year to help a mother out that had been cut out by several children over the years, but she couldn't read or write English.
Greg 00:16:35 And we said, well, and the assets were already dissipated. And we just thought, well, this is really a tragedy, but we just there's nothing to help pursue the claim. That's right. You know, other than the conscience of the children. Really?
Perminder 00:16:49 Yeah. You're making me think about a recent case involving a Filipino community, which made me think a lot about elder abuse. Right? And this scenario, that's one where the children, one child in particular, was sort of really draining the mom's assets while she was alive, using her for sort of child care with her own children and using them as like a caretaker. And, you know, they're a minimal understanding of the English language and all of the transfer of estates, gifting of various things and appointments to notaries, right, without independent legal advice, all that kind of stuff. Right.
Nicole 00:17:23 And we've seen a number of interesting cases in the Iranian community. And there's the overlay of Sharia law often and assets in Iran and assets here.
Nicole 00:17:35 Have you seen that as well.
Perminder 00:17:36 So I don't have much experience with those. Can you speak about that a little bit. What would you.
Perminder 00:17:40 Say.
Nicole 00:17:40 So we've we have a significant percentage of clients that were primarily on the North Shore. There is a similar overlay, and then they do have a their equivalent of a dowry. It's got a particular name which is escaping me right now. But certainly there are different rights for women versus men and around property and things like that.
Greg 00:18:01 Right now, I think with a lot of those cultures coming from there to because they had to leave so quickly in some cases, you know, the assets weren't documented necessarily how they came in and who owned them. And old arguments come back in these cases, which is right, which is a bit of a shame.
Perminder 00:18:19 One of the things I just thought about was, you know, one of the it's not so recent anymore. It was, I think, a 2019 decision, grey wall and lit, sort of a Richmond family, a couple male children, a few female children.
Perminder 00:18:31 Another one of these interesting things that happened in particular in that case was the female children. While they were getting their education and going through high school and wanting to go to university. They wanted to pursue these things to advance themselves, but their father would often say, I need you at the farm. Right. So it's another classic farm situation, right? I need you out of the farm. Especially during the seasonal picking and seasonal work. Right. And so what would happen is, is that these these female children would sacrifice their own education, which is like their capital asset, right? Their individual capital asset for future earnings and, and the like to be independent for the sake of the family and then the family's assets, the farm in this case I think they leveraged first farm to second to third, which grew a substantial estate. Right. And the beneficiaries of that were the two sons. And the court had to analyze why this Wesa and this analytical framework is so important, right, where the preferential treatment of boys over girls.
Perminder 00:19:38 Because then you can see what happens. The court talked about in that case, one of the women had in life ended up in a terrible marriage. Divorced, without her own capital asset, right of her education to go work. And so she kind of ended up in poverty. Right. That's such a perfect example of why this is wrong. Right. That case, when I really dug into those facts, that was really when it hit home about what the community was doing and where their beliefs, though, you know, held truthfully and maybe they felt honestly right, the impact it has on other people. Right.
Nicole 00:20:14 So let's talk about that. So you referenced to us so the Wills Estates and Succession Act. So we have section 60. Do you want to tell our listeners what that says.
Perminder 00:20:22 Absolutely. So when it comes to the true legal terminology, the thing I like to bring home for people is that the court leaves us with the impression that they will be analyzing things to tell us that as parents, we have a moral and ethical obligation to provide for our children.
Perminder 00:20:41 And now what's interesting is some people often think that it's you have to provide to them equally. That's not necessarily what the court is saying. It opens up a whole analytical framework for the court to look at many different things. Right. And in estate planning, where I did a deep dive recently on this, was that people often thought that if you and practitioners if you if you try to deal with the estate outside of probate. So things like insurance policies with designated beneficiaries or joint tenancy with the right of survivor, things that would transfer outside of probate, that you somehow are protecting those from wills. Variation claims the court will still look at the assets that fall into probate to try to make that balancing act of what happened outside and what happened inside. So that that's the beauty of this legislation and the court's analyzing the act.
Nicole 00:21:31 So what about testamentary autonomy, though, in honoring the wishes of the deceased? How does the court reconcile that with the, I guess, cultural norms of our society as set out in the legislation.
Perminder 00:21:44 You know, while I was driving here, I was really thinking about testamentary autonomy. And I thought, if you ask the question of how do I feel about Wesa, right? And testimony tree autonomy, how do you reconcile as a lawyer when you would hope, if you were an individual who goes to seek legal advice and draft a will and plan your estate that whatever, as long as you're competent, right? That your wishes would be honored. That's what testimony to autonomy is, right? That you your wishes will be honored. We are. We build our careers. We build our estates. We build our portfolios. And if you want to give it to whoever you want to give it to, you should be able to do that, right is what everyone would think. So how do you reconcile that in a province? And we're one of a few right? Won. Some say B.C. is the only province in the rest of the country that has an act like this. You can challenge the states and other provinces, but West is very particular to BC.
Perminder 00:22:43 How do you reconcile that with legislation and our courts and rights that you have to challenge these estates? I'd love to talk about that and how you as a professional reconcile that.
Nicole 00:22:54 That's interesting. So the history in 2014 is when the new legislation came into force. So we in British Columbia, we had about eight different individual acts. And, you know, administering those was difficult. And also a lot of our estate law had been really from 80 years previous. And so they created this omnibus piece of legislation. And the idea was to modernize and make it more efficient. But there was a lot of controversy at the bar around whether you were going to have this. What was the old Wills Variation Act encompassed within West or not in British Columbia? We are somewhat of an outlier. So, for example, in Ontario, You. If a child or a spouse is left out, they effectively have to make kind of like a dependence relief, a claim in respect of obligations to support, whereas we really have one of the most proactive pieces of legislation where you have to make what's called adequate provision, and the courts can and do go in and truly vary what someone chose.
Nicole 00:23:57 And maybe that's a boon to a state litigators. But there was an interesting divide at the bar, and that it seemed generally like the downtown lawyers sort of favored. I don't know why testamentary autonomy, whereas sort of more of the suburban lawyers of which I am and you are tended to more on the side of the variation, and I can see both sides. I mean, on one hand, yes, as you mentioned, you've worked hard your whole life. You you've generated these assets. You should be able to do what you choose to do. But on the other hand, there can be great unfairness. And, and, you know, it's not necessarily because, you know, in the Chinese or South Asian community that the oldest son gets. And it might be that a family doesn't like that somebody decided that they're gay or other very unfair reasons, or what we perceive culturally to be unfair reasons. So I don't know how you reconcile that, but it seems like our courts have we had the legislation and we have on the side of varying for good and for bad.
Greg 00:24:57 Yes. And it is kind of strange because sometimes when you get the background of the family, some people that were disinherited probably deserved it a reason. But under this act, they made their way back in to some extent in the variation. So when they do a Wills variation, I think we need to explain to people is the will still valid? Like what does the variation accomplish?
Perminder 00:25:24 Right. Great question. So to keep it very basic that you may there's two stages of analysis. Someone might actually challenge the solemn form of the actual will. Did the person have the capacity and is what is written what actually they they wrote and was witnessed and done properly. Right. Or was there undue influence and all those types of things right? So that's step one. I'm assuming it gets past that stage right. So that'll make it whether it's a valid will or not. Right. You may end up with a completely struck will and then you end up dealing with intestacy. Right. Now if you end up so let's say it passes that that test that they had competency and it's we're on to now the analysis of is it fair or not.
Perminder 00:26:10 What's interesting is in basic ways, the court will go on to literally strike provisions. Right. And that's what happens. They will say that the these provisions are, you know, struck for profit being, you know, disinherited and being unfair and leaving this person out. And here's what I'm going to substitute in as my award. Right.
Greg 00:26:30 And I think often on its on its face. So when a person dies without a will, there's a described distribution to spouse and children when there is no will, and often when it's varied and you've left a child or spouse out, it often mirrors what an intestate distribution would be, right?
Nicole 00:26:50 So as an estate lawyer, a family comes to you in conflict. What are some strategies you use to try to resolve it without necessarily a full court application?
Perminder 00:26:59 Yeah, great. Great question. So what I find a lot that comes up is people say, is this going to be a long, protracted piece of litigation? Are we going to be dealing with are we going to be stuck in the courts for years? And it all depends on what you're dealing with.
Perminder 00:27:13 But often I'm promoting early mediation, in part because most of the time what I'm hearing is it's actually siblings that seem to get along and care about each other. I'm often dealing with a South Asian female that will say that I really love my brother, right? Or brothers. And I don't want this to be the thing that breaks us apart. How can we do this in a way where I can pursue my rights and still maintain a relationship with my brother? And, you know, an early mediation is one of the best ways that I've been able to have that relationship honored and successfully have this person maintain their rights. Share their feelings. Now, I'm can't help but think about that same gray wall case where imagine this. In that situation, you had two males that received the majority of the estate, right? The executor, the oldest brother, maintained that he wanted what was stated in the will right to be the parent's wishes and litigated that case, trying to make it so that the boys keep everything right.
Perminder 00:28:17 One of the brothers actually maintained, and even in the decision, the court says that he believed that that it should be split equally between all the children. So imagine that where there's disagreement even between the two males that were getting it in that case. Right.
Greg 00:28:31 And that is sometimes the benefit. And we often get called on this where it's been a year or two years because the executor both has a beneficial interest, often as a family member to inherit the most. And when you end up with a neutral administrator, that takes, I think, the pressure off the executor to stand there and just be so dug in in the position that you have to see what reasonability can bring, and it makes the others feel that, okay, now he's acting as a beneficiary. So he's, you know, he's defending his position, but not it. I think it just helps create a resolution.
Perminder 00:29:07 Yeah, I'm seeing that more and more. And the benefit of that is very, very clear to me. An a neutral a neutral administrator is an incredible resource to use.
Greg 00:29:14 Yeah. And I know often they try and think of a family friend. But I said just think of some poor friend trying to step in. Oh, yeah. It's friends with the whole family and doesn't really want to join into this and lose their relationships.
Perminder 00:29:27 Right.
Nicole 00:29:28 Right. So another question. So the advent of no fault the NDP government has changed the regime. And a lot of former ICBC lawyers, I understand, are flooding into the estate litigation realm. Have you seen that and what's your experience in that regard?
Perminder 00:29:46 Yeah. You know, when I look at the court, we're talking about the legal landscape in B.C. now, a little bit in what I've observed and what I know about my colleagues, it looks like class action litigation has picked up. So what we're talking about here for the listeners or, you know, we have, as of May 2021, any motor vehicle accident that you're in, you no longer have the right, pursuant to the legislation, to sue the other motorists for compensation, with the exception of some criminal charges that you could pursue if they're charged and convicted of certain enumerated crimes, they're pretty serious.
Perminder 00:30:21 What I've found there, just so people understand that, because they because many people thought, oh, I still have the right to do it. And, you know, in serious situations. And that sounds fair. It's not that they have insurance. So that person has to actually have assets, right? And someone who's going to commit one of those enumerated crimes tends not to have a house properties career, that kind of thing. So I've dealt with a lot of situations now where someone was convicted of a serious criminal driving offense and they have nothing. So the poor individual is left with no real right of recourse. So what we're talking about here is it was a huge practice area. There was lots of lawyers representing victims, lots of lawyers representing ICBC. Our courts were very active with motor vehicle litigation. And now since I was 2021, you know, a lot of lawyers since then have had to sort of pivot, find new practice areas. My analysis is, is that you have a bunch of people that have gone into sort of class action.
Perminder 00:31:16 I've seen a bunch of people go to family law. I believe people thought estate litigation would be one of the next big things, in part because of the biggest transition of wealth in history, the baby boomers. Everyone talks about that. I think I've seen a little bit of it, but not at the level that I thought. You know, when I, I sat down and was designing all those emotional videos and my content and my strategy around telling the story, and I sat down for a year and, and created the background for my pivot. And, during that time and once I launched, I haven't seen as many as I thought I would as my sense. But the other interesting thing from a marketplace, I'll just share openly. I've been tracking my consultations since I think I launched in late 2022, and I think I've done 250 or so consultations. And many of and many of them are South Asian females. And they indicated to me that their parents are still alive, but they know that they're going to be excluded.
Perminder 00:32:18 So when does this work really start to pick up? I don't think we're there yet. It's slowly happening, but maybe over the next five, ten, 15, 20 years you're going to see a lot more of this. And why is it that it's going to be a hot area in the law? If there's one way to call it that? There's so much value in the real estate assets, there's so much value in the businesses that the South Asian community has built. I'm proud to say that it is a community that has come to this country in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and they've done really, really well. So there's a lot of cream to fight over. And that's what ends up happening.
Greg 00:32:51 Is it for these members being excluded and knowing that they're excluded is they're preventative measures prior to the estate they should be taking?
Perminder 00:33:00 Oh, that's the question that they ask. All right. Perminder, I can't hire you right now because these people are alive and they can do as they wish, which is true.
Perminder 00:33:07 My advice is this you need to document everything as much as you can. Don't obsess about it, right? But take notes. Keep a Google Docs file somewhere. If you see your brother all of a sudden receiving things, you kind of want to know around what time of year. And what I mean by that is like cars, jewelry, like really expensive stuff that doesn't make sense for maybe what they do as a career. Do some title searches from now and again to see if title is changing on property, right? Trying to know what your parents might have, family meetings and things. As another thing I say, like if you're if the parents bring up these things, who's there? What was said? What are the intentions? Right? Who are other witnesses that are around? And look, that also makes me think about actually just honestly having the discussion, right. Talking about the content, I've had many people call me and say, we've talked about your content, we've sat down as a family and I think my parents are changing their ways.
Perminder 00:34:01 I've had South Asian mothers, meaning the person who's fighting with her husband about how they should distribute their estate. Say my husband still wants to give it to just our son. I think it should go equal. Will you sit down with us and help us, like have a conversation around this? Can you educate my husband on on what you're saying? And it's a really awkward position to be put in. But what I'm hearing is the conversation is being had, which was the whole purpose of what I was doing. I've done well enough in my career as a lawyer. I don't really do this for the money. Right. I love that the community is having the conversation. I love that people see me as someone that is, I'm hopefully not looking to be some opportunistic lawyer. This was really all about having the conversation. If I could have it that everyone just does planning and sits down and there's not a ton of money to be made in estate planning, right? But litigation is where the big dollars are spent, the days in court and discoveries and mediations.
Perminder 00:34:57 But if people just sit down and ask us to do their planning and they want to do things fairly, that fills my cup for this next stage of my career.
Greg 00:35:05 Would you say now that we're a generation or two in of the major migration coming to Canada, that some of these families are looking at family office type structures where it would be managed and fair, because there's, like you say, the wealth has gone up extraordinarily Ordinarily in some of these farms, and leveraging the farms and setting up on two sides of the border and such. And I you know, it probably needs to migrate that way as opposed to just trying to deal with it in, in a state.
Perminder 00:35:37 Yeah. You know, we're talking about farms. I think there's a good amount of farms. And I wish I had a stat so we could say how much of the farming land is owned by South Asians. I have no idea what it is, but actual real estate development. Towers, condos, townhouses. That stuff's worth way more than the farms are.
Perminder 00:35:55 And the South Asian community has. They've turned into tower developers now. Right. They're playing with the bolsters and the lakes. Right. So the wealth that's there now we're into the we have, I know, families that are into the hundreds of millions of net worth. Multiple. Right.
Greg 00:36:11 Right. And would you still see this type of inheritance, like just going back to the old way? It was done. Like it's starting to come along.
Perminder 00:36:20 I would say those players probably more modern, but it's hard to say. And what if they just choose not to give it to their children? What if they decide to give it to a charity? But the children dispute that distribution? Right. It's interesting. Right? Or to the Gurdwara. The temple? Right I know. Who knows what they might do?
Nicole 00:36:39 Let's flip it around. Say you are Mom and Dad, and you've sacrificed and worked like crazy. And you? You have an idea of how you want to distribute your estate, and you're worried it might be varied.
Nicole 00:36:50 What are they doing to protect their interests?
Perminder 00:36:54 Now you're talking about classic estate planning, right? Is sitting down with the what I call the trifecta, right. You want to have your accountant, your qualified tax planning accountant, a good CPA, financial planner, lawyer and talk about your wishes. Talk about your plans. And there are ways that you can make and ensure that the people you want to receive these things, get them right, or at least create the best chance and best opportunity at them. That's much of what you did in your career.
Nicole 00:37:23 That's true. So let's just touch on the rise of the South Asian community. So it's not just, numbers and significant wealth, which is happening, but there's also very substantial political clout. Isn't that true? And I was at a political convention on the weekend, and there was an enormous number of South Asian, very, very organized, very strategic, people. And it seems like they've got it together better than many other communities. Can you tell us about that? And what is it that your community is so savvy and so organized in this regard?
Perminder 00:38:00 Yeah, I think we're not very organized and not very savvy, but, just because I'll say, you know, there are other communities that have done it so much better in the world.
Perminder 00:38:09 And in fact, as South Asians sometimes talk about it, and we would be so much better if we were organized. We're just not organized. Right. And part of that is I don't know where this comes from, but they are always very active in politics. And that is true back home in India as well. So I'd love to be able to do a historical deep dive on that now. Now we're just talking about my best guesses about this. So when you look back at the history of Punjabi Sikhs, it is a persecuted community, right? A minority religion, minority people in India. So you had a majority Hindus, majority Muslims, high conflict in the country. You had British rule and you had this one community that just always seemed to get the wrong end of the stick. Right. So when you have a community like that, when you've been beaten down, there's been genocide. The only way that you can have some way to come out of that is to be somewhat organized. You're somewhat fearless.
Perminder 00:39:07 There's a bit of history of being sort of warriors. There's helping the British during the World wars, and there's some stats that I've read around. You know, a Sikh warrior was equivalent to ten other or Sikh army men was equivalent to ten others, right, in terms of their discipline. Command of our of an army. So you have this really interesting community that has had to face a lot of difficult times. So what comes out of that is they're politically active. They fight for their rights. They try to organize, they try to build influence. And so that's historically from India. Then you come into a new country and now you're just trying to do well. And one of the things that I've witnessed and I see and I see this in myself, is we really like to contribute to the community and not just our own community, the community at large. A lot of it has to do with giving a lot. So all the hospital foundations, a lot of it has to be like the Guru Nanak Free Kitchen.
Perminder 00:40:01 You've probably seen lots of how the temples are 24 hours open for anyone to come in and eat. There's all the feeding people in the downtown east side, so there's just something about your karma. You're doing good in the world and that seems to feed right the positive vibes for the community. So you. So if you're going to do that, if you're going to be active, you're going to be involved, you're going to do well in business. You do need to have a voice, and they will push hard for their voice to be heard. That's my observation, right?
Nicole 00:40:29 Well, it's noticeable and they are getting significant results and influence in my experience.
Perminder 00:40:35 Yeah. Some of the other history and I'm no, I didn't study South Asian history. But you know, the when I read some of these things, it more I see myself more as a Canadian than I, than I do like of a, let's say a South Asian Punjabi Sikh from India. Right. I'm a proud Canadian, but we have our own history here.
Perminder 00:40:53 With the Meru right being denied access to the lands of Vancouver, right? Being stuck on a boat and hundreds of people dying. And I love reading the articles of lawyers that fought for the rights of those people. Right. You know, it's a beautiful history. History is always complicated. But the community, especially at a time like we're facing these days, where don't you love the patriotism that you're seeing out of Canada right now?
Nicole 00:41:17 I do.
Perminder 00:41:18 Right. What was what's going on with the US and our political relationships in the world right now? If you sit down, I'm confident about this. I can say this about my community. You sit down with a South Asian, Punjabi Sikh and you talk about their pride of being Canadian. This community loves this country. They'll always say, this country has done so good by us. They're going to be major contributors in this. You're going to see that local pride, the buy local. You'll see the South Asians really bring this home, right.
Perminder 00:41:46 Because they really love this country.
Greg 00:41:49 Where can people find you?
Perminder 00:41:50 Sure. Yeah. Well, if you Google me, I think my social channels will rank pretty high. So just Google. You'll find me at my law firm, LCC law, Lindsay Kenney. We have offices in downtown Vancouver, Langley and now West Vancouver. So three offices. Thank you. Nicole. And you know, I create a lot of content and I'm very accessible. People think I'm super busy, but I tend to respond very quickly. That's for young lawyers who I love to mentor anyone who needs a consultation. We don't charge for our consultations at the firm. I'm happy to talk about these things and be available to the public.
Greg 00:42:24 Perfect. Thank you very much.
Nicole 00:42:25 Reminder this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual, legal, financial, or tax advice. Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Your Estate Matters.
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Greg 00:42:49 Whether you are planning your own estate or you're acting as executive for somebody else's heritage, trust can help partner with heritage trusts to protect your family, your assets, and your legacy.
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