Episode 54 - Unpacking Trauma in Family Conflicts with Julie Gowthorpe

Oct 9

In this episode, Nicole interviews Dr. Julie Gowthorpe, a specialist in trauma and family dynamics. Dr. Gowthorpe explains the difference between simple and complex trauma, how early experiences shape relationships, and the impact of trauma on family conflict—especially during estate matters. She offers practical advice on self-awareness, communication, and breaking unhealthy cycles, emphasizing the importance of trauma-informed support. The episode provides listeners with insights and strategies to foster healing, improve family relationships, and protect their legacies for future generations.

Nicole Garton 00:00:02 Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters, presented by Heritage Trust. Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow.

Doctor Julie Gowthorpe holds a doctorate in social work from the University of Toronto and specializes in complex trauma, mental health and relationships. She's the founder and CEO of Gowthorpe Therapists and leads a team of trauma informed professionals. Doctor Julie, thank you so much for spending time with us today. It's a great honor to have your expertise and to be able to share that with our listeners.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:00:57 I'm so happy to be here, Nicole.

Nicole Garton 00:00:58 We'd love to hear it from the beginning. Why did you choose social work and particularly trauma and complex family trauma? Tell us about that.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:01:07 The interest in trauma goes back a long way for me. And of course, I didn't recognize that it was trauma at the time. As a young person, grade seven, I had, I would say, a really great childhood.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:01:19 Lots of fun, great parents. And what happened, though, is a another person, a young woman or child at that time moved down the street from me and lived with her grandparents just down the street from where I lived with my family, and we became fast friends over that time. But the interesting piece about that, and I'll call her Jody, Jody moved down the street because her mom had been murdered. And again, we were in a small area that just didn't happen in the late 80s. You know, we all felt safe. So when this occurred, you know, we would hear rustlings about it, what had happened. But I think as a kid I didn't recognize what that would do to someone. And she spent a lot of time with our families. We did many things together. She joined us on trips, but a weird thing happened and that's when we were about in grade nine. All of a sudden Jody couldn't walk anymore and she was hospitalized. And, you know, no one talked about trauma.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:02:21 Then as I went on in my career, that always kind of stuck with me. Well, why couldn't Jody walk? What? What happened? Well, that's about the body keeping the score. The body holds the trauma. And so there was no medical diagnosis as to why that happened. But now, as an adult and looking back, I know that was from trauma. So after I finished my undergraduate degree and I actually worked for a firm in Ottawa of therapists, and I was in an admin role, and I was still thinking about writing my LSAT at that time. But I was asked, you know, one of the therapists there, a psychologist, said, you're not meant to be a lawyer. You're meant to be a therapist. And so I was a listener at that time, and I took his advice and then proceeded from there and just by chance, began dealing in a lot of family conflict, custody and access matters, parenting capacity issues, and the theme that ran through that. And again, it was a very behavioral response at that time.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:03:15 Like, you know, we'll tell people not to do that, put those court orders in place, that they have to behave in a certain way. But we know that that's rarely sustainable because you're like putting Band-Aids on gaping wounds. So as I progressed in my career, I realized that if we're actually going to make changes in family, we have to go deeper. And that's about healing the wounds that create that conflict and create that fear response that people have in there trying to protect themselves. But really what they're doing is engaging in conflict and pushing people away. So that's how we got to today, where everything that I do at my practice and when I bring people into work with me in terms of being associates. They have to be trauma informed and they have to understand why that is essential. So I hope that answers your question, Nicole. But that's really how I got to where I am today.

Nicole Garton 00:04:07 So that family friend, did you ever reconnect with her later? And how was she later?

Julie Gowthorpe 00:04:12 Well, she actually had a number of other experiences later.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:04:15 And given what she experienced. I mean, she created a very stable, positive lifestyle for herself, which is really remarkable given that level of trauma. But again, we are not in touch today in terms of just living in different spots. Nothing negative just really grew apart and she's had other grief that she's had to deal with along the way. So we've had little connections. But in terms of me understanding trauma and what it does to people, that was really my first experience and again, not really looking at it until much later. And what was causing that or her hospitalization and really how no one talked about it and no one talked about like, oh, well, why did Jodie stop being able to walk? No one got into. Well, Jody's been through a lot. It was really looking at medical reasons why that might have happened today. That wouldn't happen in that way. There would be support in place right away. But again, we like to think there's support rate in place for people immediately if they go through something, but that's not always the case.

Nicole Garton 00:05:20 We hear trauma a lot in the discourse now and, you know, trauma practice or trauma informed or complex trauma. Can you help our listeners understand, like what is trauma exactly? And what is, I guess, complex trauma? And how does that differ from just the regular difficulties that humans might experience in life?

Julie Gowthorpe 00:05:39 Yeah. So trauma first of all, it's a normal response to an abnormal situation. Okay. So often people make the mistake of thinking that trauma is what the event is itself. So if you go through something that's trauma, Well it's not. It's how our body and brain. So how we as humans respond to something terrible. Now, trauma can be a simple trauma. So sometimes that's referred to as like a “big T” trauma. Listeners might have heard that before where it would be something it could be like a single incident trauma. So, combat or an episode. So, people who've been in combat, perhaps they've been assaulted, they've gone through something that occurred with a beginning and an end, and they've responded to it in a normal way, but it's left symptoms that go with it.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:06:29 So complex trauma is like a series of things that people have happened over an extended period of time. So I often think about it like if you were to look at your life landscape, a trauma, single incident trauma could be a tree. You could put a tree on the landscape and you've had to deal with that. But complex trauma, which can occur over many years, is like a building of that. So you have many trees, many bushes, vines underneath, and they're all twined together. And ultimately with complex trauma, you have like the symptoms that go along with a single incident or a simple trauma, but you also have the vulnerability and that fear of vulnerability that can impact those relationships. And to understand it, when kids go through trauma, there's and many people may have heard about this as well, but the adverse Childhood experiences study. And then there's a test that follows with that. And that really talks about what kids go through in those early years. And then also we can look at into our adolescence as well.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:07:34 Those things form our lens on the world. And so we need to keep ourselves safe. That's how we survive. So we need to keep ourselves safe from things that could hurt us. And when we learn early on that the world is an unsafe place and then nobody steps in to protect us because that's a protective factor if someone goes through an adverse experience but they have loving support around them, they are less likely to suffer from long term implications than someone who has not had that loving support to surround them and protect them. So that's the difference between complex versus simple trauma. But the symptoms can look very much alike.

Nicole Garton 00:08:14 So how does that interface with kids that may have had attachment breaches? Because we hear that buzzword a lot now is attachment disorder. Or, you know, maybe there was war or mom was depressed or a child was in an orphanage. How does that interface with adverse childhood experience or trauma?

Julie Gowthorpe 00:08:32 Well, so if we think about adverse childhood experiences and attachment, attachment is a biological need. So it's a system so that our needs are met and that we ensure that a caregiver, often a parent, will take care of us if that doesn't happen or it's, you know, push and pull, sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:08:56 That's a challenge to our attachment security. So that sense of safety and security that we develop in the world and our ability to navigate things, so we still will. We often say that people become how they cope with things because they've had attachment issues where their needs weren't met, that they're dysfunctional, but actually they're functional. There are means by even though it can look very dysfunctional on the outside, they are functioning in a way that they can be safe and secure. So even if it looks like they're chaotic and can be aggressive, they are doing those or alternatively avoiding and pulling away. They are doing that to keep themselves safe and secure. So you can imagine then why that becomes a problem if the child grows and then they start to develop, you know, healthy relationships, they start to meet healthy people. And what was once functioning in terms of allowing them to survive is now destructive in those healthy relationships. So if someone has an insecure attachment style as they are growing, they either may come across as needy or alternatively controlling because they're trying to protect themselves from vulnerability or protect their vulnerability.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:10:09 So because they fear being hurt again, and those attachment breaches often occur because of traumatic episodes.

Nicole Garton 00:10:17 So often we see individuals that may have had attachment difficulties under trauma, and it manifests in maybe personality disorders or high conflict people or mental health diagnoses. Can you talk about the association between those events and later difficulties as adults?

Julie Gowthorpe 00:10:35 Yeah, for sure, because I think for many, many years people were misdiagnosed with personality disorders when really they had unresolved trauma. Right. So that's because Is trauma makes people fear, intimacy, connection, relationships, all those things that go with relationships. Right? So what happens is that someone might have a person be diagnosed with a personality disorder because they've had so many breakdowns and relationships. They can be explosive, volatile, and they're not able to soothe themselves to a place where they are content and able to engage in relationships in a healthy, functional way. So those are those connections. And similarly, you know, mental health, of course, it depends on the diagnosis. Not everything is related to trauma.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:11:23 But when we look at trauma what creates dysregulation also looks like mental health issues. So it's the neural pathways get formed very early in life in terms of how we keep ourselves safe, how we function in the world. It becomes dysfunctional in those habits get formed. And then, of course, if we're looking at all mental health issues, Addiction is a way that people cope with trauma as well when it's unresolved. So then you layer addiction on top of all of the other mental health diagnoses.

Nicole Garton 00:11:57 So what happens? You know, you've got individuals that have had trauma or attachment issues. How do you see that manifesting later in family dynamics? What are the common tells or difficulties that you see?

Julie Gowthorpe 00:12:10 So first of all, let me just say that unresolved trauma leads to these problems. If someone has received support, encouragement, love, and they are able to change their attachment style into adulthood. So someone who has had a lot of trauma can increase. I would say their attachment security. So I don't want people to think that because they've had trauma, they can never have healthy relationships and that they will constantly be in conflict.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:12:39 But like anything, the longer we leave something, the harder it is to change it. And if people have had unresolved issues because they've been hurt as children and they've developed wounds that have never healed, then what happens is those are just carried into whatever the next relationship is. And people who have wounds, that meant they are fearful. Because when people will say a big a big statement, people will say to me when they come in for therapy is, you know what? I just hate people. So you don't actually hate people. You fear them because the hatred or the anger that you are feeling towards people feels protective. In that moment. It feels like you're protecting yourself from people. And so you're protecting your vulnerability because something bad happened to you and something taught you along the way through that life lens and how you're going to navigate the world, that the world is unsafe, people are unsafe. And so then you've let someone into your life, you've developed a relationship with them, you've perhaps married them and they do something, or you believe they've done something to you.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:13:50 And then again, they've just proven you right. You never should have let your guard down in the first place. And understandably, you're angry about that. You are angry with them for breaching that trust. You're angry with yourself for trusting. And that creates that dysregulation and that reactivity. Because what you would see when you're dealing with high conflict families or relationships is the volatility of it. And we know that when stress goes up, tolerance goes down. That's so important for people to remember, right? So if you are going through a stressful situation like a divorce or in a state matter, you are going to see your tolerance for small things decrease, particularly if you haven't had a lot of treatment around it. But even if you've done a lot of treatment, you're relatively stable. You're feeling good about things. If you walk out and someone drives the stress up for you. Particularly someone that you've chosen to trust and allow close to you. Even though having people close to you is not a place of comfort.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:14:53 Then you are going to have a volatile situation. And remember, old habits die hard so the brain can be lazy. And if your way of dealing with things that upset you or discomfort is to explode and be reactive to push it away, then that's going to be the first path that the brain and then your behavior will take and your body activation. So you have to learn to be very conscious and mindful about what's happening with you internally and self-aware. If you are going to navigate things that are going to come up in every relationship.

Nicole Garton 00:15:26 So what are some proactive steps families can take? So maybe there is a history of trauma or we talk about intergenerational cycles and you want to stop the cycle. What can you do as a family to try to change this and have better coping ability.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:15:42 Well, it's important that first of all, you're self-aware about what's happened, what's happened to you, what's happened to your family. So you're not living in like the things that silence families are denial, shame, avoidance, and then that can culminate into addiction and just unhealthy coping strategies to either the family just stays together and doesn't share anything outside of the family, so they don't get help, they don't get support, or they stay locked in these dysfunctional patterns.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:16:13 That makes the family system dysfunctional. So if someone starts to try to pull away from that, like crabs in a bucket, the family is going to pull them back down, right? So you want to, as a family unit, recognize what's happening. And that will require you to get an outside perspective on that.

Nicole Garton 00:16:31 How do people get that insight? Like, I think, you know, working with families in conflict for many years, you know, we've all had being a human in this world. Invariably we'll have grief, we'll have difficulty. But some individuals seem to be able to have insight, and some individuals seem to have recurrent patterns where they can't see their role. Like, how do you even start with people even understanding the pattern?

Julie Gowthorpe 00:16:57 Well, the problem, I think, Nicole, you're talking about is by the time people get to these high conflict matters, it's like what I said, these are old habits. These are behaviors that are deeply entrenched. So you really want to get to them before they start.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:17:14 You know, I often say to people who come in and they recognize that their family system has been really toxic to them and toxic to everyone involved, that it's a real congratulations to them when they do something different with their children. Right? So when you make a change, you may not change the current conflict that's happening. You may not change that family system as it is today, but by inserting some healthy things and by doing things different yourself as a parent than you might change it for the next generation. So I don't want to set up the expectation like, wow, you can do something different in your whole family is going to change like a before and after photo. That's not going to happen. But what can change is that you can do something different and you can start to feel good about being healthy, and that's hard as well, because again, that same piece, that one that I don't leave my family like my family, you've seen the most, difficult families who they will fight amongst one another.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:18:13 But in terms of doing something different as individuals, they don't want that person to leave. So in terms of self-awareness, it really is going to be on each person individually if they are locked in the conflict to reflect, to pause, just take a moment between what's happening and how you're going to interact, to pause. And I've been encouraging people to kind of get to know themselves. I get to know your inner child, your vulnerable self, because then you can figure out why am I reacting this way? Why am I like each time a successful person in the rest of my life? Why is it whenever I'm with my family unit, I am so reactive? And it's because you're often playing off other dynamics and because you're reverting to the place where you were, but you're not today. So you have to get to know yourself. And also letting go of the idea that they are going to validate you if they are so entrenched in this conflict style of interaction that you're looking to them to make a change before you do, you have to accept that that's not going to happen.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:19:21 So it's radically accepting that you're not going to change everything, but you can change how you are going to respond to it. And that comes with practicing that self-awareness and, you know, learning what happened to you. How did that affect you? And things happen to us, as you just pointed out, by no fault of your own. And not everything is traumatic. That's also a big misconception, is that we often think nothing really bad happened in my life. So why am I, like, engaging in this way with, say, my sibling or my parent? But it can be those smaller things as well that happened. You know, for Gen Xers like me, it was really common to say, oh, you're fine. What are you like? There's no big deal here. Why are you upset? Everything's going to work out fine. So there was a real dismissal around feelings. So part of that is learning. What do I feel? You know what does matter to me? What's made me feel not enough? Or that I have to constantly prove myself.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:20:19 Because when you. By the time families get to dealing with, say, you Nicole, they have had these. There's been many, many years to get to this point of this lack of communication or communication that was one sided, dismissive, not hearing what was really happening. There's been an absence of focusing on feelings because there's so quick to jump to, well, what do we need to do that the feelings get lost. And then when the stress goes up, such as in estate matters, then all of those feelings are going to surface in a way that is not helpful.

Nicole Garton 00:20:51 So say somebody recognize the unhealthy pattern and they don't like their assigned role. Like if it's black sheep or a pleaser or avoider or a fixer. You know, it's funny how entrenched those roles can be. So someone comes in and they say, you know, I want to change this pattern. What are some interventions that professionals can do to help people?

Julie Gowthorpe 00:21:14 So first you want to teach people to be, well, help them learn about what's happening.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:21:20 So learn about security. Learn about insecurity. Learn about what is causing me to become so flooded or activated that I need to jump to this old coping style. Well, even the fixer or the problem solver. Why am I jumping to that so quickly. What is it within me that is requiring me to do that? And then what do I need to say to myself so that I can change that? Because the change has to come from the person who's seeking the help initially, right? And by you changing your patterns, first of all, you have to realize that you are going to be challenged at every level by that family system to keep those roles in place because people are afraid. It's not because people have bad intent. I think often, you know, even there are, of course, personality disorders that we have to accept that there will be bad intent. But often what happens in these high conflict situations is that everything seems like there is bad intent behind the behavior. And really, the bad intent is often just about self-preservation because people don't know how to function without that pattern.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:22:27 But by you as an individual becoming self-aware and recognize it, you can start to change how you are interacting, and just by interacting differently, you're going to see small changes. First of all, you're going to get a lot of pushback, of course, and you may find yourself having to minimize how much you interact with that family unit. But you might find by minimizing that interaction, the interactions are still healthier or at least less activating for you. So then when you're in your new relationship as an adult, now that you're able to then carry out healthier patterns without being so influenced by this toxicity that you learned to survive as a child?

Nicole Garton 00:23:07 Yeah. That's interesting. So what tips would you give families if, you know, maybe you've got a relatively new family unit and they want to model healthy coping or communication or conflict resolution. What are some best practices that you would offer families to have a healthier system?

Julie Gowthorpe 00:23:25 First of all, listen, some of the people that say they're the best communicators, they talk a lot, but they're not great listeners, right.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:23:32 So you want to make sure that there is room. There is space for people to communicate and talk about how they feel. Even if you don't agree, it's okay. You want to make sure that your parenting style is something that allows that to happen. So you're also empowering kids to become healthy adults rather than telling them what they need to do all of the time. So you don't want to come off as an authoritarian parent. You want to be authoritative. You know they can come to you, they can trust you, but they also get voice and they have autonomy because that's what we want for people. We're not crushing people here. This is, you know, basic training. This is about helping people develop into good adults. The other piece that I think has been very, very helpful with families is helping them understand that two things can be true. More than two things can be true. Many things can be true at the same time. So say you're dealing with an estate matter and you might be thinking, this is totally my brother's fault.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:24:29 Like, I blame him completely for why we're here. I'd like you then to add. And my brother loves me. He's been through a lot, too. That might be something that we would have. Those two things. True. Because what that does is it softens it. So it's not so black and white in terms of good evil. You know, as Westerners, we love that. We love to have villains and heroes. But what we need to have is a realization that, you know, we're all human and we can do good things and we can do things that are not helpful, but that doesn't make us evil people. We don't have to have one winner and one loser. So within a family unit and some family units have been structured that way, where there is always a fall guy like you used that word, the black sheep, right? There has to be someone responsible all the time. And sometimes it's the dynamic that's responsible because it's been set up as a no win situation.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:25:21 So we want to create wins for everybody. And the key part also is that we want to always be mindful about how we are interacting with the world, how we're interacting with our families, and realizing there is a lens that's directing us in that way. And that lens, in many cases, is our past experiences in trauma, so that it's like, okay, well, I want to go out and have a good day. But, you know, I'm wearing these glasses that are making everything all cloudy, everything all sad. It's hard to have a good day. I want to have a good relationship. But I've got this belief system that people are unsafe. I want to be able to, you know, create a healthy, happy life for my family. But I really don't think that's possible. And I don't want to be blindsided by that. So I'm not going to set myself up for that hurt. So we have to deal with all those internal things that are going on with us, so then we can be a healthy participant in our family, just like we would be a healthy participant on a team or in a workplace.

Nicole Garton 00:26:16 So how do you develop that insight? Is it through therapy? Is it through reading? Is it journaling? What do you recommend to people so that they can learn about themselves and their patterns?

Julie Gowthorpe 00:26:27 Ideally all of it. Nicole. But I realize that people are busy and that people often want a quick fix, and I'm just going to be quite open. There is no quick fix, and I can tell you trauma doesn't go away on its own. And that's not that stressful. Experiences don't go away. Stressful experiences that don't create symptoms that follow those things will resolve over time. But grief and traumatic events and things that really grip our heart and, you know, leave this residue on us. Those things are not going to go away unless we address them. So that's where, as I've talked about just earlier on, it is really important that we, from my perspective, that therapy is trauma informed, that you utilize a mindful based cognitive therapy. So you're really, you know, you're able to ground yourself, you're able to self-regulate, you're aware of your cognitions so that you can empower yourself and better self-regulate as well as get what you want in this life.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:27:27 So Yeah. You know, to find that, you know, or to discover it's actually within us, it's not out there somewhere, but to be able to experience the joy and happiness that we all deserve. As in terms of resources, I have written a book that's going to be released in winter, and it is Crossing the Relationship Bridge. The purpose of that is because we, as many people as adults, are like, why I want these relationships? I want to have a healthy, happy relationship with people, but there's something getting in the way and I don't know what it is. I know that bad things happen to me. I know that it's hard for me to trust people, but beyond that, I don't know what to do. So that's where I've designed a framework, really, that allows a mix between mindfulness based cognitive therapy and attachment perspective to help people get what they need in terms of healing. And so that is one strategy because to healing from fear and vulnerability. To get to a place where we have happy relationships is a challenge.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:28:34 And I when I see people who have been to therapy and they're like, I still don't feel any different. It's often because the therapy was really aimed at only cognitions, and it wasn't getting to the underlying peace about that vulnerable part within us that that inner child work or place of vulnerability. If people prefer that that language where in that place you learn you're an adult, you don't need another parent to parent you. At this point, you can do this for yourself, but you have to learn to soothe what's going on so that you can then respond to the world, respond to relationships, respond to conflict in a way that meets your needs and your sense of safety in the world. So then you can break that pattern that you had in your family and be able to move forth in a way that you want, that your children want, and that you're letting go of all that hurt that you've been carrying with you.

Nicole Garton 00:29:30 So if people want to find out more about your book, how can they find you?

Julie Gowthorpe 00:29:33 They can look me up at GowthorpeTherapists.com

Julie Gowthorpe 00:29:36 You can follow us on social media @JulieGowthorpe. And that's on Facebook, TikTok, LinkedIn, Instagram. And we will be posting more about the book as it's released through Page Two Books.

Nicole Garton 00:29:48 I've a final question about social worker. So, you know, I've been a lawyer for 25 years. I've dealt with many, many families in conflict and many mental health professionals. There's something about social workers that makes them particularly effective mental health professionals. What do you think that is?

Julie Gowthorpe 00:30:07 So I think because we're very well educated in terms of we're careful with what we do. So, you know, I think there's been a little bit of a breakdown in that over the last few years, not with social work, but in terms of people deciding that they're therapists and they're doing things very quickly. They are you know, the new therapy wave is kind of a lot of like quick programs. And then rather than learning within a group like I learned within a group and organizations, is that they quickly jump into like on their own, they're going to practice on their own.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:30:40 That's risky. And social work has not gone that direction. Social workers look at things from an ecosystem framework. So we are looking internally. So we are looking at, you know, genetic, biological as well neurological as well as all of those factors like trauma, like support systems. So internal and external factors, social workers are on that. And we also look at the bigger macro factors like social justice issues and racism and intergenerational trauma, all of those things that impact how someone functions. So we take a very broad look, but we also have the ability to get down to the micro, where we get in the weeds with people, and we're not afraid to do that.

Nicole Garton 00:31:25 Well, you have amazing results and so we are very appreciative of that. And thank you so much for the time you spent with.

Julie Gowthorpe 00:31:32 Thank you. I appreciate you having me on.

Nicole Garton 00:31:34 This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual, legal, financial or tax advice. Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances.

Nicole Garton 00:31:49 Thank you for joining us for this episode of Your Estate Matters. If you like this podcast, make sure to follow it on your podcast platform of choice. Whether you're planning your own estate or you're acting as executive for somebody else's heritage, trust can help partner with Heritage Trust to protect your family, your assets, and your legacy. If you'd like more information about Heritage Trust, please visit our website at Heritage Trust Company now.

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