Episode 55 - Balancing Tech and Human Connection in Lawwith Christopher Martin
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In today's episode of Your Estate Matters, Nicole speaks with Chris Martin, Managing Partner at Lindsay Kenney, about his journey in litigation and the evolving legal landscape in British Columbia. They discuss the shift to no-fault ICBC claims, economic pressures on legal practice, and the growing role of technology and AI. Chris shares insights on mentoring young lawyers, managing a midsize firm, and the importance of professionalism and empathy. The conversation offers practical advice for Canadians interested in protecting their families, assets, and legacies amid changing legal and economic conditions.
Nicole Garton 00:00:02 Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters presented by Heritage Trust. Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow.
Chris Martin is the managing partner of Lindsay Kenney and has a broad litigation experience in a variety of corporate commercial matters. He's appeared as counsel in all levels of court in British Columbia, as well as the Federal Court of Canada. As an experienced employment lawyer, Chris represents employers and employees in wrongful dismissal and discrimination matters. So, Chris, thank you so much for joining us on your estate Matters.
Chris Martin 00:00:58 I'm happy to be here. Thanks, Nicole.
Nicole Garton 00:01:00 So tell us about your career. So how did you get into litigation, in particular?
Chris Martin 00:01:06 Litigation sort of came naturally after I articled and did some due diligence on corporate matters. I knew that I wasn't cut out for that and looked at other aspects of the law and litigation, I think, is more interactive in that you're interacting with your clients and you're interacting with opposing parties and ultimately interacting with the judge.
Chris Martin 00:01:28 So I think it was just a natural of what my skill set was and what I'd like to do.
Nicole Garton 00:01:35 So are there some early cases or seminal moments that guided you to where you are today, or what was it that led you to your current practice?
Chris Martin 00:01:45 Well, to be perfectly honest, when I first started, I didn't know how long I'd last in the practice of law. And then I came to Lyndsey Kenny pretty much after tickling and spending some time with the National firm and had very good mentors who encouraged young people and sort of took an active interest in one becoming a professional and two becoming a very good litigator. And, I think it was something. It was a combination of inner drive, but also, nurturing that, sort of inspired me to be one to repay the trust the mentors had in you and to aspire to be as good as them. So I think that's how it really evolved. and here I am 20 plus years later.
Nicole Garton 00:02:34 So there have been a lot of changes in practice, like particularly in personal injury, for example, do you want to tell our listeners what that huge change was and what that practice area is looking like going forward.
Chris Martin 00:02:46 Well, the practice area has completely changed, but personal injury vis a vis ICBC or a motor vehicle accidents in British Columbia has been overhauled since 2022, when it went into a no fault system.
Chris Martin 00:02:59 And it's interesting to me in that a lot of the general public didn't realize it, or had does not realize it until they're in a car accident, injured in a car accident, and has to deal with ICBC. So the change was that you could no longer really, with very few exceptions, advance a personal injury claim arising from a car accident for your pain and suffering for your economic loss. That's all legislated. It's akin to the worker's compensation legislation in which the government, through its agency, sets sort of a schedule of how they will compensate you and care for you.
Nicole Garton 00:03:34 So how does that change the role of lawyers in this area? Like what if what's that?
Chris Martin 00:03:38 It almost negates it. It doesn't become economically beneficial to the lawyer or to the injured party advancing their claim in that, because it's systematic. You just have to go through the system, and the cost of using a lawyer to do that is prohibitive, as there really is no upside for the lawyer, because a lot of this was done on contingency fee, where it was sort of a partnership between the injured party and the lawyer to advance their claim.
Chris Martin 00:04:05 So I don't really know off the top of my head, any lawyer who's specializing in dealing with ICBC under the no fault system.
Nicole Garton 00:04:13 So what's this meant for the profession? Because there was a lot of lawyers that were in that practice area. What are they doing now?
Chris Martin 00:04:20 Well, the legacy files are the ones pre-existing are still being winding their way through the courts, which may tell the listener how long the legal process takes, that there's still a number of files that are set for trial, or a number of files that are still being negotiated between ICBC and the injured party. Those are winding down, and there is sort of a void for those lawyers who are, of course, litigators and can find different areas to practice as a state. Litigation has been Family employment. I know that it's pivoting for the professional, but for the general public, it's just they're really having to deal with ICBC on their own. The effect, I think, on the profession in general just doesn't affect the lawyer. It affects their practice.
Chris Martin 00:05:07 Many of them have personal injury lawyers on their own employ multitudes of people, including paralegals, support staff. So that's sort of a either the profession's going to absorb them in different roles, or they're going to have to find alternative employment. And that's been sort of been working its way through in the last 3 or 4 years.
Nicole Garton 00:05:27 But these are often like highly skilled professionals, like incredibly talented advocates. And so what are they doing? Are they going into family or estates or employment or general civil litigation? Where are they going?
Chris Martin 00:05:41 Well that's correct. Some of the personal injury lawyers are in court all the time and have done jury trials. And so those that have spent a considerable amount of their career in court will find litigation to do, whether it is family, whether it is. I know that there was a big pivot within the personal injury community around estate litigation. Their family and employment is other aspects. Now they could do commercial litigation. They could decide, okay, well, I've always wanted to be a criminal lawyer.
Chris Martin 00:06:13 I should try to practice this. So that's one of the aspects that's a good part of being a lawyer is, you know, is that it isn't a straight-line career path. You can find all aspects within a community to find where your legal skills can and take you and employ you.
Nicole Garton 00:06:31 So tell me about you. So you've got quite a busy employment practice, I understand. Like what? Tell me about some of those files.
Chris Martin 00:06:39 Yes. So employment practice for me is acting from employers and enacting for employees. When I say employers, that is such a scope of people potentially in, you know, you've got multinationals versus local companies versus, mom and pop operations or more mid-size operations versus a single person who's a landscaper who's employing somebody to assist them. So employers is a wide scope of people. It's basically anybody who employs anybody to assist them in their business venture. So I act for both sides. I've always I never specialized in personal injury. It became something of a practice that was within just being a litigator.
Chris Martin 00:07:24 So I I've since I started, I've done employment litigation. I started what I when I articled, it was with a big employer backed law firm that no longer exists. And then evolving to commercial litigation and then personal injury picked up just as our firm took on more of that work. I became part of the litigation team advancing those claims.
Nicole Garton 00:07:46 And tell me about general commercial litigation. Like, what are the common issues that you see that businesses are needing help with?
Chris Martin 00:07:54 I think right now the biggest thing as the economy evolves is collecting your invoices and making sure you're secured for payment. I think we've had people of my generation have had a good run where money was free and flowing, and usually your invoice was paid and that's evolving. So ensuring that your services, whether you're selling something or supplying something, are going to be paid for and then if they're not collecting them, seems to be the most common issue arising right now. But of course, any obligations between parties can be any contractual breach or anything like that.
Chris Martin 00:08:34 Usually results, not usually, but that can result in litigation as well.
Nicole Garton 00:08:39 So in British Columbia, you know it's well publicized. There's huge cost of living issues. We've had economic pressures. Certainly there's been uncertainty. With tariffs like how are you seeing that manifesting in businesses and having difficulties.
Chris Martin 00:08:55 Well in my role in two aspects, one is in the employment role. There's a reduction of the workforce or you have employees coming and saying, well, look, this is what I've been offered or I've been terminated. What are my rights? And within commercial operations, it's okay. Enforcing bills have been delayed or payment has been denied. And those things I think that go hand in hand with the economy. When the economy turns, you have more disputes about payment and more people being laid off and their rights looking at how they can be compensated in their transition period.
Nicole Garton 00:09:33 So yeah, they say it's interesting about lawyers. They're busy when the economy's growing, they're busy and when the economy is contracting, but not necessarily when it's flat.
Nicole Garton 00:09:42 So unfortunately right now we're having economic difficulty and that's generating disputes and work.
Chris Martin 00:09:47 Well, creditor remedies is for instance, the foreclosures. You could see that practice for a number of years contract and now it's expanding. And that I think, is a measure of the strain on the economy or the strain on the individual, whether it's the person or the business.
Nicole Garton 00:10:04 So you're also the managing partner of a midsize firm. How do you manage that in the context of a busy litigation practice?
Chris Martin 00:10:14 Well, I think the managing the law firm and the litigation practice is about time management. There's a third aspect of that too. It's my family. So I manage it by, you know, I think as you know, as you evolve in a career, you become very skilled at managing your time and focusing your time. So I get up early and do things when it's quiet. And usually those are litigation tasks because they take concentration and analysis and then the daily managing tasks are usually done at work when I'm in the office, or then later in the evening when I have time to reflect or read things.
Chris Martin 00:10:52 So it's a balance. As we all, I think, struggle with no matter what position or employment you're doing.
Nicole Garton 00:11:01 So what's it like managing a bunch of lawyers? I've heard it's like managing cats. Like, how do you find that?
Chris Martin 00:11:06 Well, I think as somebody a professional, I think it was a mediator said to me, what? I didn't know you inherited 14 children. So it is, lawyers are highly intelligent. And sometimes that can be difficult in trying to get a consensus because of their own independent thought, bring so many different issues into forming one united vision. But I look at it as I'm skilled at trying to get a consensus and patience, and listening is a good thing to do when you're dealing with lawyers and reflecting before making a decision so that, you know, sometimes in a litigation practice, it's more adversarial and you can assert positions that are challenging. Sometimes you don't want to do that with your partners. You want to take time, reflect and see how the best way to message what you're after.
Nicole Garton 00:12:03 What's a successful law firm in your view?
Chris Martin 00:12:06 That's a very good question. I think it's a successful offer for me is where we empower people to be professionals, to embrace what the practice of law is. And when I say people, I include everybody in. It's not limited to lawyers. It's to our paralegals, our support staff, our receptionists, our back office that we're really serving clients people. It's a people business that I think gets lost in that you have to be service oriented. But a successful law firm empowers the people it employs to properly service the people it takes money from or their clients. So I think its success is recognizing how stressful law can be for those performing it. But also, obviously it's stressful for those that are involved in it. They're their most vulnerable, regardless of whether it's a family dispute or a dispute about money. This is something that litigation is the last resort. It isn't something where you can have reasonable discussion and have found a solution. You're searching for a solution from a third party, unless you can come to an agreement along the way.
Chris Martin 00:13:18 So it is stressful. So that's where you have to put an infrastructure in place that recognizes those stresses, but alleviates them by empowering and educating people about just having a good mindset when they come to work.
Nicole Garton 00:13:33 So there have been enormous macroeconomic and technological and demographic changes. Like what's that like to manage in the context of a of a firm and where do you see things going in the next few years?
Chris Martin 00:13:49 Technology. It's interesting to me because I think I'm well, the two of us are in that sort of in-between age group where we were exposed to the World Wide Web and internet, probably at university and had access to it. We were using the first cell phones and the first blackberries, I guess, or Bordelais blueberries at the time. But what I have struggled with, and perhaps maybe learning all the time, is how different communication has become as a result of technology change that the learning that many young people and many of my young lawyers have is far different than what I experienced or what generations before me experienced.
Chris Martin 00:14:32 And the sort of shorthand communication through your fingers is their primary form of communication growing up and then coming into a profession where you're dealing with people communicating has so many levels that isn't usually often the written word is wrong or can be interpreted wrongly about what you're trying to convey. And it's sort of educating people or younger lawyers about active listening, about picking up the phone, about having people into the office for a conversation is far more beneficial in that you get all aspects of who they are and what you're trying to achieve for them. So I think it's also this AI explosion, and I understand that it's a very good resource to filter it information. But analysis, it still has to be done. And I'm sure you see it, is that I can spot somebody relying on AI very quickly in how it's crafted and the level of thought in the correspondence or the memo or what's going on. So I think it's a tool that shortens the period of time in which to gather the necessary information for a lawyer or a paralegal, or even for an individual client.
Chris Martin 00:15:49 But it's the skill of advocacy or skill of any lawyer of your corporate is taking that information and adding value to it. Right? Because if the information's out there, anybody can get it. It's how you're advancing the problem for your client. So I think that will be the I guess it's an education piece about the technology with regards to the profession and what you're selling to your client or what you're providing to your client.
Nicole Garton 00:16:17 So implicit in what you're saying is good lawyering. So all your years of experience, you lead this firm. What's a good lawyer?
Chris Martin 00:16:24 A good lawyer I think is a person who understands first, it wants to be a professional and understands that being a professional, I encourage, you know, of course, the Law society. Rules and ethics. Integrity. you are put in a position of trust and you should respect it. Those are the basic sort of foundations that I think every lawyer is instilled upon through the legal training and practice. But it's using that day to day and then recognizing that within that is to see a problem and think, okay, I don't stop here.
Chris Martin 00:17:00 What's the next level? My client has a problem. I've got this resource, but how do I navigate this? And that takes analysis. It takes thought. It takes effort, analysis and effort. I think I think technology, and it's one of the benefits that we over is the ease of effort of everything. Right. And of course I've benefited. You benefit from it. But effort is still required to analyze and go those next steps. And I think it's something I learned early on in litigation was, okay, you've given me what the standard answer is. So now how do we solve the problem? I think that's maybe I'm a skill that has to be continued to be nurtured and emphasized. The ability of, you know, AI gives some quick analysis that looks sounds right, looks right, looks like effort, but it may not be effort at all.
Nicole Garton 00:17:57 So part of your job is building good lawyers. So how do you build a good lawyer? And what are you noticing generationally? I think you've referenced that in terms of the new people coming up.
Chris Martin 00:18:08 Well, I want I shouldn't generalize because I have some very good lawyers who go above and beyond an effort. And I think that's the skill set is leading by example. You need partners doing the same thing, recognizing that technology is a tool, not an end all and leading by example with that and sitting down with lawyers and paralegals and saying, okay, we've got this, how do we refine it? And another example is the leading by example is taking young people to events, you know, encouraging podcasts to things like that, encouraging them. I always try to package it when I'm talking to a group of young lawyers is these are life skills. So they're not necessarily provided, you know, if you're into advocacy, you get a chance to do that in law school and learn to speak on your feet and to advance a topic or an argument. Conversing with people, understanding them, listening to them is a big thing of advocacy. At the front end is understanding their story and what they want. But those skills are going to be at a soccer field.
Chris Martin 00:19:16 They're going to be in a cocktail party where you don't want to talk to anybody. You need to learn to build some sort of connection, especially with their clients. But it's life skills. It will help you when you have children and you're doing those kind of things, or it helps you if you're wanting to volunteer for or advance interests outside of law. If you want to sit on boards and do those things, you need to learn how to communicate. And a big part of communicating is listening and being interested. Right. I think a law conference years ago, there was somebody talking and he said, I tell my children two things. Be interested or be interesting. That's what your day should be like. You need to find your niche in that. I guess it's basically what value you're adding to the conversation.
Nicole Garton 00:20:06 So, Lindsay Kenney, how is that different than other firms in British Columbia, for example? Like what is its unique niche or culture in the profession?
Chris Martin 00:20:17 Well, uniqueness is always…in a uniform profession,
Chris Martin 00:20:21 It's hard to say. I think what I've my limited experience in bigger firms versus why I'm still at Lindsay Keeney 20 plus years is people and a recognition that I think within our culture that everybody's in it. The partners I think that founded Lindsey Kenny understood that they were providing not for themselves. That was great, but also for the associates that they brought along and the support staff, because everybody relies on employment to assist their lives. So you're benefiting yourself, but you're building a little bit of a community within your law firm that hopefully benefits the greater community. And I think that is really the generosity between partners. Generosity between lawyers is an empathy, right. I think it goes a long way in a stressful profession, in a competitive profession, that if you can be generous and empathetic and compassionate to your employees and your the people you work with, and that translates to your reputation outside the law firm. So.
Nicole Garton 00:21:31 So there's so much buzz right now about AI and how disruptive it's going to be, particularly for knowledge workers and white collar jobs.
Nicole Garton 00:21:41 Like what do you see about how that's going to impact law particularly. And is it how are we going to train young lawyers if a lot of the due diligence or administrative tasks are going to be automated?
Chris Martin 00:21:57 Well, I think that's where we're circling back to the there will be a premium on effort on those that take the time to analyze. And, you know, and there's a lot of room within that analysis. Right. There's those that can analyze facts and assemble facts very quickly that aren't boilerplate for you and those that are, you know, legal scholars who can take the next level of where the issues between the parties and apply the law that I. At this stage computers haven't beaten the. The human condition is so complex. You think you've seen everything and then of course you don't. You see it. Each day is a new sort of add on to all of these things. So there will be, you know, I look at it as a refinement that all the time and money spent assembling will be changed, but perhaps there's more time in analysis and refining arguments.
Chris Martin 00:23:00 Hopefully it turns, you know, I think everybody's been hoping for that. The legal process becomes more accessible for the people it's serving, which is the general public. And it's I can't say that has ever occurred in the 20 plus years. That just escalates. Time takes it takes, you know, forever to get things done. And you're hoping that with technology assisting that it can short circuit some of this stuff, but that's to be seen, I think.
Nicole Garton 00:23:32 So where do you think the firm and the profession generally is going to be in five, ten, 15 years? How do you see it'll be different?
Chris Martin 00:23:41 I think there'll be a change in the first thing you think is okay. Well, all right, if we can have computers doing a majority of this stuff, how much office space and how much, you know, traditional office interactions do you need? And I think it's almost that you need more collaboration or a space to collaborate with the information provided. It may be that lawyers have less sort of traditional.
Chris Martin 00:24:08 I'm locking myself in a room and going through a stack of documents. I guess they don't really do that now. They go through stacks of computer files. There is a I think the other part of technology is that we think it refines things, but sometimes it expands things. So document management becomes almost unmanageable, but I think that there will be an emphasis on it from a litigation perspective, just the team advocacy and the collaborative work. It will give more time for that. I think, quite frankly, where law firms should be doing, in my view, is doubling down on mentorship. Doubling down on collaboration and doubling down on fostering these young people who know all this technology to assist those that don't.
Nicole Garton 00:24:53 So what's a good mentor.
Chris Martin 00:24:54 Interested in their mentee? Attentive to that. And of course finding time often get sort of chagrined by lawyers. Could say, I have no time for that. I don't think many people in any employment have time for that. It's making time. Right. The and prioritizing that time actually that a good mentor prioritizes listening and being attentive to their mentee.
Nicole Garton 00:25:21 So you were around the same age? We've practiced a long time. What do you want your legacy to be? Those. You know, you've worked really hard. You've had all kinds of cases. You've led this firm. What kind of impact do you want to leave?
Chris Martin 00:25:35 Yes. I'm not leaving yet. But, you know, I think, you know, I've always realized how big the practice or the machine of law is. I look at more on a day to day basis of what impact I've had at Lyndsey Kenney, with the people I've worked with. I think that's probably the most important part at the end of the day, relationships with those people. And then, of course, on other sides, you know, I'd like to be known as a professional. I had integrity. I dealt with people fairly and openly. You know, there that would be something that I would hope that would. I've carried myself that way. I'd hope that it would be recognized. And at the end of the day, maybe brought some humor to it.
Nicole Garton 00:26:17 So I think I've got a bug in here. Sorry to ignore me. Okay, Continue.
Chris Martin 00:26:21 And maybe I brought some maybe brought some humor along the way because I think that assists when you're dealing in high conflict situations. So beyond that, I'm not overly concerned about, my professional reputation. I hopefully my legacy more is with my family and my children. And so that's the way I've always looked at it.
Nicole Garton 00:26:39 Do your children want to be lawyers?
Chris Martin 00:26:41 They haven't said that. Yeah, they're only 13 and 10, so. But I can tell you they both can certainly argue very well. So they found some skill along the way. They may have listened to me at a time or two.
Nicole Garton 00:26:54 So Chris, this has been amazing. Is there anything you'd like to leave our listeners with?
Chris Martin 00:26:58 Yes, I'd like to just circle back to we touched upon the economic pressures that businesses are facing in British Columbia currently, and we are a built in BC business. So we're familiar with that.
Chris Martin 00:27:11 We're going through the same struggles, recognizing the same problems. But we add a level of why knowing the region, knowing what we're facing, and to being empathetic to that and understanding how to navigate those issues. So keep us in mind.
Nicole Garton 00:27:27 Thank you so much.
Chris Martin 00:27:28 Thank you Nicole.
Nicole Garton 00:27:30 This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual, legal, financial, or tax advice. Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Your Estate Matters. If you like this podcast, make sure to follow it on your podcast platform of choice. Whether you're planning your own estate or you're acting as executor for somebody else's heritage, trust can help partner with Heritage Trust to protect your family, your assets, and your legacy. If you'd like more information about Heritage Trust, please visit our website at Heritage Trust Company.
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