Episode 56 - Smart Moves for Tough Family Decisions with Angela Thiele
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What happens when four decades of family and estate law collide with real-life lessons about love, loss, and legacy? In this compelling episode of Your Estate Matters, host Nicole Garton sits down with veteran litigator Angela Thiele, Partner at Lindsay Kenney LLP. We unpack what she’s learned after more than 40 years helping families navigate some of life’s most difficult transitions.
Together, she and Nicole unpack the roots of family conflict, the rise of “gray divorce,” generational and cultural differences in estate planning, and why mediation often beats the courtroom.
With wisdom, warmth, and a dash of tough love, Angela reminds us that the best lawyers don’t just win cases, they help clients heal and move forward.
Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters presented by Heritage Trust. Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow. Azure is a partner with Lyndsay Kenney LLP, a general litigator with a varied practice. She leads the Family Law group and is a very successful family lawyer with a varied practice recognized by best lawyers in Canada. Miss Thiel is also a successful estate and employment law litigator who's appeared at all levels of court, including the Supreme Court of Canada. Angela, thank you so much for joining us on Your estate matters. We really appreciate your time and you're you sharing all your wisdom and expertise with us.
Angela 00:01:03 Happy to be here.
Nicole 00:01:04 Do you want to share your journey into law and maybe why you chose to do family in estates, areas that are often so divisive.
Angela 00:01:13 I think it's fair to say that after 41 years doing this, that when I look back, I was from a single parent family with not a lot of money and I, you know, worked my way through school and got my law degree.
Angela 00:01:27 And so when I started practicing, I really wanted to do more of helping people in terms of life events. But I started in doing labor work and commercial litigation. But there was always a few family or estate matters coming along. And when I, joined Lindsay Kenney, where I've been now for, I think, about 35 years, I was planning on having a family, and I wanted to have a practice that was a little bit more flexible. I could meet and did meet clients with my children and their children at playgrounds and things of that sort, so that I could work around people's work schedules and their children's schedules. And the estate area was sort of a natural complementary practice area for me because, again, life changing events. Let's try to make this as positive for the families that I'm helping, and let's try to do those types of practices in a resolution-oriented fashion.
Nicole 00:02:28 So tell me, were there some early seminal moments or pivotal cases that shaped your perspective or your style of practice?
Angela 00:02:37 One that I really remember, and I continue to remember, is that I was a student at camp Murphy, and I had the privilege of junior and a trial.
Angela 00:02:46 In those days, I wasn't actually junior, and I was kind of running around as a go boy and with four really good, celebrated counsel. And it was a case where a gentleman had transferred his shares in a very valuable family company. He had a serious alcohol problem. He was now dead. His children were basically saying to their uncle. Dad didn't mean to transfer those shares. He thought you were going to hold him in trust so that he didn't, you know, lose them because he had these alcohol and financial problems. And what I remember most is some of the best litigation I've ever seen, lots of discussion about evidentiary issues because there was a state of mind argument, you know, how do you how do you get in the hearsay and on the side a discussion about settlement going on. And that trial settled on the third day. But I saw the best of lawyering, but I also saw the best of people that weren't just, I'm in trial and we're in trial, and we're going to go to the end.
Angela 00:03:46 People that went, this is a family here that ultimately, after this ends, they're going to have to work together. And our clients got the shares back and they continue to work with their uncle and the family company. You know, till they're probably, you know, the family company is still doing very, very well and they're still a part of, you know, the Vancouver business community. So you could have seen a trial decision that just ended up with a lot of animosity because in essence, is a credibility dispute. The uncle really was going to take it hard as I saw the evidence unfolding. But the lawyers decided that notwithstanding they were already in trial, they were still room for resolution. And that was really inspiring. Plus, I got to see, you know, some of the best lawyers in the city as a very young lawyer as well as an acting student.
Nicole 00:04:35 So knowing you as a lawyer, Angela, because I've had the privilege of working with you for many years, I think that actually typifies my experience of you in that you are preeminent counsel, like the best of advocacy and litigation, but you're also incredibly pragmatic, and you genuinely care about your clients.
Nicole 00:04:55 So obviously that early case must have guided your values or practiced, because I see that today in the way you lead.
Multiple Speakers 00:05:03 Well, I also think that my.
Angela 00:05:04 Personal background guides me. It's interesting. After my dad died, my grandmother died very soon after, and she died intestate. And my mom had three little kids, and granny had a house. And at that time, you know, the way things were done was money. Went to the public Guardian and trustee. And I remember when I got older saying to my mom and was a lawyer, mom, why didn't you ask for that money to be used to allow you to buy Granny's house? You know, for us, I mean, it was a beautiful home on the west side. We lived in a basement suite on the east side. You know, she probably could have afforded to do that, you know, with some help with her family. But no one gave her that opportunity. No one said to a single mom, hey, this is what I think you should do for the benefit of your children.
Angela 00:05:50 It's one of my practice areas now, fighting with the public trustee to let parents, you know, when there's a death that's unexpected and intestacy. To let parents manage their children's money in a way that is going to be beneficial to them. You know, I think the house was $12,000, I was seven. You know, 12 years later, I got like $8,000 back from the Public Guardian and trustee for my third. But our life would have been very different if we'd been living in that home. My mom's life would have been very different. Now, I think perhaps I might have been a little bit more spoiled if I lived on the west side near UBC. Maybe I wouldn't have gotten to where I am now, but that choice should have been given to my mom and our family.
Nicole 00:06:36 So that early adversity. Is that partly what has driven you? Like you were the gold medalist of your law school class of your era. You're notable and that you're one of the few female litigators certainly still in the game.
Nicole 00:06:51 Like, what is it that has driven your success or being such an outlier.
Angela 00:06:58 Well, you'd have to talk to my 98-year-old mother about how much she nags. But in essence, I enjoy helping the people, my clients, but also some of these people that don't become my clients, that simply make a phone call and say, what would happen if I divorced now? Or what would happen if I had this fight? And often I'm telling people to not hire me, to not litigate, or to accept what may have been the decision of their parents or the decision of their husband. And, you know, to try to act or say to some people, you know, you sound like you have a pretty nice life with your husband. And, you know, I don't think you really understand what it's like being a single parent. And I don't think you understand what it's going to be like for your children. And I make that speech very often because I don't think personally that, you know, if there's no abuse and there's no, you know, infidelity.
Angela 00:07:58 I don't think that women are better off ending a marriage, but in particular, I just don't think children are better off when a marriage ends. So I do try to bring those sorts of practical suggestions, like we tried marriage counseling, you know, maybe instead of being so busy saving money and trying to get ahead, maybe you guys need more vacations. So, things of that sort or, you know, maybe if you're feeling unfulfilled with, you know, being a stay at home mom, maybe you should try working part time. You know, I think your frustration at your role has a lot to do with your perhaps just not stimulated by the choices you've made. And I've had people come back and say to me, you know, years later, that advice you could have taken me as a client charged me $10,000 and you told me to try again in my marriage. You told me not to fight, you know, my siblings for a little bit more money. That is the part of law that I like is being able to make a difference in someone's life and do it in a fashion that I won't say they remember, but I feel good about it, and they apparently feel good about it because I will hear from people again, you know, and when we do have to litigate, knowing that I've tried everything to resolve something before we had to litigate.
Nicole 00:09:23 So what do you think? Is feeling a lot of the family conflict, like, you know, whether it's a family file or, or an estate matter, like why is it that so many families are are in difficulty?
Angela 00:09:36 Well, in the estate side, second families or second spouses with kids of the first marriage, those are the most common disputes that I see sometimes. Sibling rivalry in terms of siblings of the same family, you know, mom always liked you better, or mom and dad gave you this than and I didn't get that. in the family area, I think it's, you know, life is tough, you know, in, particularly in Vancouver, people, you know, housing is expensive. people are stressed or having to work longer and harder, their emails always going, it's 24 over seven and people just don't have time sometimes for their spouses. And the frustration they feel about their life sometimes comes out with, well, it would be better if I didn't have to worry about him or her if we're fighting.
Angela 00:10:27 And sometimes the fights are stemming from, you know, you're not doing enough to help me in my role, and people start to think they're going to be better off if that person isn't in their life. And particularly for millennials or people, you know, in their 40s where they are just finding life very hard, sometimes people are making the decision that a separation and divorce will make their life easier. I don't philosophically understand that, because if you love this person enough to have to marry them and have children with them, you can try to work through problems. But it's a disposable economy, I think, right now. Well, I if I dispose of my spouse, I might be happier.
Nicole 00:11:12 Let's talk about that. Do you see generational differences in conflict? Like whether it's, you know, Gen Z or millennials or X or boomers, do you see differences in how conflict is approached or managed?
Angela 00:11:27 Yes, I do. What I've really seen is the differences in family law, the fact that a woman can leave when she has to and there is enough money, there is enough child support, there's spousal support guidelines, there is a manageable framework.
Angela 00:11:42 So you can tell someone if you leave, this is what you're looking at. I think that that causes, you know, people to at least feel comfortable when the marriage is really not working and or there's, you know, abuse or infidelity. And they just said, I cannot be here. It's very comforting to be able to tell people very clearly, you should be entitled to this, and you should be able to get that by agreement rather than by litigation, because the person on the other side is going to know that they're going to tell their husband or the wife, this is what you're entitled to. But I also think generationally, there is a little bit of instant gratification or expecting certain things that I certainly didn't have in my generation. You know, I didn't automatically have Mommy and Daddy given me some money to help me buy a house, but sometimes it's in the younger generations it just seems too easy to divorce. And then they actually hit the reality of the kids going back and forth and new partners coming into life, and then in the estate area, because we have cultural and generational divides Where, for example, some cultures believe it is appropriate to give the sons more of the inheritance or more of the assets, and they would give their daughters.
Angela 00:13:02 And of course, the daughters of this generation aren't going to stand for that, which is a good thing. And the law is recognized that that cultural we always give the money to the boy is not going to be appropriate in this in our current society. But those types of cases keep coming up, you know, much more prevalent than they ever were before.
Nicole 00:13:23 Let's talk about gender differences. So as you know, I used to practice family law. And we see this in our offices. And then the data is apparently the majority of marriages are actually ended by women. Why do you think that is? Why are women deciding more than men that they want to reset or that they want to leave?
Angela 00:13:47 Because I think the women in a family have the toughest job. And, you know, I've been doing this over 40 years. 40 years ago, a stay at home mom could not have left. The money wasn't there. They weren't going to get proper child support. They weren't going to be able to keep a home.
Angela 00:14:02 They weren't going to get proper spousal support. So now when you tell a woman who's unhappy, here's the numbers. Often the first discussion is, will you have some help? If you want to keep your house, will you have some help? And of course, because of the generational wealth behind us, now, you know, a parent can say, yes, I'll take a mortgage out of my house to help you. And so women who were 40 years ago trapped or were ending a marriage and living in poverty, they're not there anymore. The law has advanced to the point where women feel safe ending a marriage. What I'm seeing a lot of is gray divorce, where a woman gets an inheritance and she decides that's the time to to leave her husband.
Nicole 00:14:48 I've seen that, too. We talked about the cost of living and things like that. Do you think that's playing into disputes? And, you know, particularly in Vancouver, where the cost of housing seems to have completely disconnected from what people actually make, and Canadians are carrying record consumer debt? Do you think that's a factor in some of the conflict we're seeing around family in estate disputes?
Angela 00:15:16 Well, absolutely.
Angela 00:15:17 I think one of the hard parts is, for example, if you have a family on the North Shore and there is no, you know, they've they've perhaps bought that house 10 or 15 years ago. It's gone way up, but neither of them can afford to keep it. And often the other party can't afford or one of the parties can't afford or both can't afford to stay on the North Shore. So they're looking at moving their children out of their schools, away from their friends. And in my view, that sometimes keeps people together. But unfortunately, people tend to think, well, if we keep fighting about it and giving money to lawyers, somehow they'll solve this problem for us. So we can't afford to stay in our homes and it doesn't happen. I will always, on the first consult, go through the you know what will happen and what could they possibly afford and could you get in a student? Is there some rental space in your house? You know, could your parents help? And on the first consult I have, I will always say you're not going to be able to keep your home, and I'm not sure you're going to be able to afford anything on the North Shore.
Angela 00:16:23 And that sometimes ends the discussion, right then, because, you know, the thought of a child having to leave their friends and leave their neighborhood and leave the community. I mean, kids doing hockey and doing soccer with a bunch of friends for many years. That's devastating as a parent. And I think as a parent myself who went through a actually a late in life divorce, but I know that kept me married, just the thought of what would the consequences be to my children? And that was the time where we, you know, could have easily afforded a second house in a, you know, in the same neighborhood. But at the time, my, my husband wanted to go buy a boat instead. And I was going, well, where are my children going to be living when you have them? So, so ultimately, we managed to work that out and stayed together for another 20 years or so.
Nicole 00:17:11 Let's talk about when litigation sometimes is unavoidable. So there's, you know, a huge push to alternative dispute resolution and mediation, maybe even collaborative family law.
Nicole 00:17:26 You know, certainly the courts don't want families in the system because of the cost, not just financial, but, you know, to relationships. And but there are some disputes that are intractable. And and, you know, you and I practiced for a long time. Like sometimes it's the personalities. Maybe they've got a personality disorder or maybe there's such a value differential Like, how do you know when? Sometimes you just need a third party decision maker? How do you know when litigation is unavoidable?
Angela 00:17:56 I always say litigation is never unavoidable. I have not gone to trial in a state matter for many, many years because we have the wonderful resources of two retired judges who mediate and other retired judges who have mediated over the years in terms of family law, allegations of, you know, abuse or things where one party is specifically saying that didn't happen and people are using that to try to advance a claim with respect to the children in terms of not being, you know, not sharing the children, those probably go to trial more than they should that type of person.
Angela 00:18:37 And I can say on the other side is probably, you know, the only type of case that I've had to taken to trial in the last few years, but I have sent a lot of those clients away as well, because if somebody is just not listening to me saying, this is not going to improve your life or your child's life, this judge doesn't know anything about your life. There's a judge who's now in the Court of Appeal that when he did a JCC many years for me, he said to both parties. Words to this effect. You wouldn't let your lives and your children's lives be decided by a stranger. I'm just a stranger who happens to be on the corner of Howe and Smyth. I don't know your shoulder. I don't love your children. I don't really care. You know what happens to your children. But you would want me to make that decision. Does that really make any sense? And I use that speech over and over again. And I've told the justice, you know, in a private conversation that I use his speech, and he really appreciates that because it was, I think, pretty spontaneous, but it was just the perfect note.
Angela 00:19:40 And if people hear you about, you know, judges, we don't have very many family lawyers that went to the bench. We have some very smart judges, but smart is not what you need in family law. What you need is resolution. And you don't get resolution from a judge. And when you're finished, I've never had someone come to me and say, well, I was really glad, Angela, we did that trial. That made me feel really good when the judge decided in my favor. What I've had is people come to me and say, you know, I really wasn't sure at the mediation when you were encouraging me to take this deal, but, you know, your bill was reasonable and I was able to move on quickly. I didn't have to wait for a judge. I'm really happy that you encouraged me to do that.
Nicole 00:20:27 But what about disputes that are truly zero sum? Like, you know, someone gets a job in Ottawa that is going they're going to make much more money and be able to afford a house.
Nicole 00:20:40 So one of the parents wants to move there and take the kids, and the other parent can't move. Like, aren't there some disagreements that you simply need a third party decision maker because there isn't a middle ground?
Angela 00:20:55 Well, there is a middle ground because you can say to people you're going to lose. I mean, there's not that many pieces of litigation where you can't, with experience, look and say, you're going to lose. But yes, I've certainly argued a case like that. Someone wanted to move the kids to California and being successful. I think if that client on the other side hadn't been so unreasonable and hadn't had an unreasonable lawyer, then we wouldn't have had that argument because it was clear she'd actually the kids had had to be brought back by a court order when she took them to California without permission, and she was found in contempt and notwithstanding that, she was heading off to trial. So, yes, those are the worst cases. But as I say, if you pretty well say you're going to lose, if they're my client, you're going to lose.
Angela 00:21:43 They usually listen, and if they don't listen, they go to somebody else. But the person who's got to, you know, doesn't have a choice. There's their spouse is going to go to or their partner's going to go to trial if you know, whatever they do. Of course, those are the types of cases, the zero sum cases, you know.
Nicole 00:22:00 Mental health professionals often say that there's likely a disproportionate amount of people in the court system that have mental health and or personality disorder diagnoses, i.e., they have sort of an invisible disability where maybe they have zero sum thinking. Or do you experience that? And what do you do when you've got either your client or perhaps a party on the other side that has those characteristics? How do you manage that?
Angela 00:22:27 I certainly have had that type of file. It's not really that manageable in terms of I fortunately have never had a client of my own like that. I think perhaps because I recognize that fairly early on and I don't take the file, but I have had that on the other side, and there's really no way to manage it.
Angela 00:22:46 You have to be in front of a judge.
Nicole 00:22:48 So let's talk about planning. What do you think the mistakes are that people make that result in their families ending up in disputes or litigation?
Angela 00:22:58 They don't talk to their families. So in terms of planning, particularly if you're talking about a blended family or a second family, you have to talk to your family. I also think that you should be giving children funds for things that are important. If you could afford to do it a down payment and treating them, you know, very similarly throughout their lives. But you know, when you get a remarriage and a younger family and children that, you know, still have to be educated and perhaps a second wife, younger children is against adult children, there's no easy way and people are going to be unhappy. But I think if you have that discussion and say, hey, look, guys, you know, older children, you know, you guys got into the market a long time ago. I paid for your college education.
Angela 00:23:45 I gave you a down payment. You're all doing well financially. My priority has to be for these younger children that have not yet had those advantages. With a real estate market that's up, up, up and my my new spouse because, you know, she is the mother of these children. They won't like it, but they sure will like it more if they hear about it. When you're alive and have the possibility of saying, well, okay, dad, we don't really think that's that fair. But, you know, we understand why you're doing what you're doing. I think that is the worst thing that people can do is just leave the surprise for, you know, kids who then will, you know, have some animosity to the second family. The pieces of litigation that I have done that ended up in court were all second family pieces.
Nicole 00:24:35 So it's interesting that more lawyers don't combine a family in estates practice. Like certainly that's something I did. I know that's something you do, but they're so inextricably linked.
Nicole 00:24:47 Why do you think that they're sort of siloed and and what would you say to our colleagues or practitioners about maybe serving clients by integrating those areas better?
Angela 00:24:57 It surprises me, too. I was in court yesterday speaking to an auditor with a very good colleague, and we were talking about the fact that I was coming to do this and my blended practice. And I said, you know, you got a great law firm and some really smart people at it. Do you have anybody doing a state work? And he said, no, I just I said, but it's so complimentary. And, you know, he's a senior like myself. And getting to that age where we're very attractive to, you know, people of our age group that are trying to solve these problems. But I think it's just people who are going, I'm really good at what I'm doing now. I'm a family lawyer. I'm well recognized. I don't want to change streams where, you know, when I was coming through, I always had a hand in both sides.
Angela 00:25:42 My partner, Cassandra Drake, my associate, Katherine Culver. Everyone in my family law group is doing some estate work as well. And then we also have the estate solicitors on in our firm. Quite a few of them to help with the planning. I think it's a mistake for family lawyers not to even sometimes understand issues of estates and just simple things like taxes. I'm doing a file right now where one colleague in the estate area said something to the effect of, oh, well, my client can get that joint account, a joint investment account, tax free. And I said, no, you can't. You know, you really need to look at tax and understand how this is going to work. Because when we're discussing a resolution, you know, it's between stepmom and stepson. And there's the resolution where someone gets the rollover benefit of an RSP or something, or a tax of an investment account is much more beneficial than a whole bunch of tax being paid. And I think, frankly, with family lawyers, we don't have enough of them that really understand tax because the same thing when you're settling a family file.
Angela 00:26:51 Looking at, you know, butterfly transactions, making sure you're talking to your client's accountant, making sure you understand what you can do with your client's corporate structure to, you know, be more tax efficient in the settlement. And so that tax knowledge works in both family and estate matters. And I don't think enough of my colleagues have that. I do remember many years ago, are you telling me you didn't understand my tax structure in the way I'd organize my affairs and some of the ways you can do things for people in a relatively cheap fashion. Accountants time is usually a lot cheaper than ours, right? And it really benefits them.
Nicole 00:27:30 So let's talk about some ADR solutions that are available for people if they're going to avoid the really divisive, expensive, time consuming litigation process. So can you tell our listeners like what is mediation and what are some potential benefits?
Angela 00:27:46 Oh God. Mediation is is a life saver. Really, we didn't have like in my first 20 years of practice, I never did a mediation because there weren't a lot of mediators out there.
Angela 00:27:58 And I think in 1984, some of the first family mediators came along and they're still there. And one of my biggest concerns is all people with this great experience mediating who always help settle my files are going to retire. And so I'm really pleased to see younger mediators coming along. But the benefits are that, you know, that those hard feelings you have about a matter which really aren't going to help you at all in court if you sit there and articulate well, I think this is really unfair. Well, if you articulate that to your mediator and you have a good mediator, you get that out. And the mediators are very good at getting you to express your feelings before they try to get you to settle, and getting the feelings from both sides as to what led to the breakdown of this marriage, or what are you most upset about? On and in terms of an estate file? What would be a win for you? What do you think should happen? What do you think a judge would do? And the mediators say, well, you know, do you understand? Currently, I can't get a civil trial in a state matter until March 2027, and I have to be in a lottery to see if I'll actually get a judge that month.
Angela 00:29:14 I went out yesterday to do a very contentious court matter. I had booked in advance months and months and months of calling for a date. I didn't have a judge. Now, fortunately, my friend and I had spent the last evening settling the matter and I had said to him, we're going out to New Westminster every time I'm in New Westminster, even though I'm supposed to have a judge, I don't get one. So people understanding that you're going to wait two years plus Loss for a decision. And in the meantime, you got to run your life. And in family cases, we generally get some priority with judges, but not always. We get bumped the same as everybody else. And again saying, you know, I don't control that. I cannot control whether you'll get a judge. I can control whether we will succeed at mediation by having you sort of look at the various options. And this mediator is going to help us. What bothers me sometimes is you can't get people to agree to a mediation if two files right now very similar.
Angela 00:30:15 One of them, the other lawyers said, oh no, we're going to do affidavits, we're going to do depositions, we're going to do all this from day one. I said, let's go mediate with Jane Dougherty and Sandra Balance wouldn't agree. We finally have a court date in middle October, two days. It's a summary petition, but she wants to make it a trial. She's finally said she'll agree to mediate. Conversely, similar file issued my pleadings because I needed to put a restriction on the title. I won't use the CPL word because a lot of people don't know what that means. But when the other lawyer got on and we sort of exchanged some letters, she said to me, do you want me to do a response? And this is within the first month. I said, I'm not going to require you to do a response if you will agree to go to mediation as soon as possible. She says, absolutely. Jane and Sandra said yes. So there's the difference. The first file, the clients of each, I'm sure, spent over $100,000 on things that were really not necessary.
Angela 00:31:14 And on this one, we got a set of pleadings out. We'll, you know, I think resolve in mediation and maybe the clients at the end of the day will spend $30,000. You know, I think both cases were equally resolvable in mediation quickly. But you needed to have a buy in by both counsel.
Nicole 00:31:35 What makes a good mediator?
Angela 00:31:37 Mediators have so much empathy. What I like about a mediator and I there's several that I use routinely is when the clients say she really listened to me. He really told it like it is. They really said, you're not going to succeed in that argument. But they said it with kindness and with sort of authority, not because they wanted to tell me I was wrong, but because they wanted to tell me that, you know, if we don't think that you're going to succeed in that argument and we're, you know, mediators are senior lawyers, some of them had, you know, litigation practices as well. Most of them had litigation practices as well.
Angela 00:32:18 Hearing it from them and most times confirming what I've already told them. But they don't know anything. They're just an independent, neutral third party. And with the retired judges, it is so effective for one of them to say, which they often do. If I was judging this matter, this is what I would have done. Mary Ellen Boyd. I used that exact speech on a client of mine about ten years ago. Mary Ann Allen, when she was mediating, those words would come out and you'd be saying to your client, well, if I'm saying the same thing as this retired judge mediator, why would I be encouraging you to go to trial if I'm encouraging you to go to trial when the mediator says you're not going to succeed? When I say you're not going to succeed. Do you not think I'm just trying to, you know, take money from you that you shouldn't want to give me? And a lot of my clients will say, oh, I just want to fight this. I just want to fight this.
Angela 00:33:13 And I'm like, well, okay, but you have to understand, I can't I can't ethically tell you to do that. And I don't want to tell you to do it. I don't need your money. The law firm doesn't need your money. We want a client at the end of the day, is happy with the service we've gotten from me and thinks the result is a good result. And you don't have to get that good result in the courtroom. And you likely will not get that result in a courtroom.
Nicole 00:33:37 You're describing to me Advice from a really good lawyer. So tell me, what is a great lawyer?
Angela 00:33:44 I think a great lawyer is someone that puts their clients interests ahead of their own. They never think about billing. They try to be very practical in terms of, well, you could do this chambers application, but right now chambers is chock full of people, and I would have to sit there for eight hours and I might not get a judge, and I might have to sit there for another eight hours and I might not get a judge.
Angela 00:34:09 So I understand why you're upset about this particular issue, but it is not something that I suggest that you take to court. I think it's also talking in our family cases. A lot about mommy and daddy are going to court, and that's going to take him another year before it's over, and they're going to see their parents in conflict for at least a year and doing things like, you know, making phone calls and recording them and videoing, you know, transitions and exchanges I've had because I've been doing this long enough. I've had adult children come back to me and, you know, meet me socially or meet me with their parents who I still see and say, wow, you know, some of our friends, like they're still wracked from their parents divorce. You know, I was really glad that your mom, you know, had you as a lawyer. You know, she didn't like she didn't fight and fight and fight. It's really awful when, you know, there's parents that can't talk to one another, even, you know, can't go to a wedding of their children or a graduation of their children without having a barrier between them.
Nicole 00:35:15 That leads me to the legacy you want to leave. So you've had a long, really successful career. You've done a lot of interesting cases, like how do you want to be remembered? Or how do you want this profession to be different after you've been in it for so long in the trenches?
Angela 00:35:31 I'm really encouraged by the young lawyers I see in the family law area. I think there is more interest in early resolution. I think there is more practicality in some of the young lawyers. I think the legacy of, you know, certainly at my firm, you know, saying, don't fight that, don't encourage that argument. You know, if this client isn't listening to us, you need to tell them to go someplace else because we're not doing them any favors if they won't listen to us. I am, you know, really pleased at any file in which I have a younger lawyer. I'm always going, wow, you know, you are smart, but you also have empathy. And when I say, I think it would be more practical if we did this in this file, you go.
Angela 00:36:16 Oh, great. You know, it's good. Yeah. Let's save our client the money. That's the legacy I'd like to leave. I find sometimes I have to tell my people, you know, whether to start to do a particular task. And I'm going. No, that's just a task. You know, you need to look at your file from. What do you want to see at the end? Now, is this particular task going to really advance us to the end. So, for example, I often don't do my responsive pleadings right away. I kind of have to be forced to do them because I don't think it advances anything. You know, if I you know, I tell my friend what my positions are, but that's just a piece of paper you've got to do. So I actively look for ways to, you know, save money for clients, but also save conflict, because sometimes when you put, you know, in a pleading or an affidavit, there's some somewhat nasty things about the other party which aren't going to make any difference to the resolution, but you just happen to want to say them you're not going to resolve.
Angela 00:37:14 So if you could avoid, you know. And sometimes I get letters that are just so aggressive and antagonistic that I will pick up the phone to my friend, you know, who I usually know and say, look, I don't think this file is something we're going to really be fighting about. But if I was to send your letter to my client, we would be fighting. So I'm not going to send your letter to my client. So let's see how we can maybe batten down the aggressive conflict, you know. Sort of name calling that's going to cause our clients to explode and a lot of costs being spent. It's not always effective. I have a particular colleague, but I said to him, you know, if you send me one more letter that asserts family violence, I'm just going to start to rip them up, you know, because, you know, you're just trying to create a record and that's not particularly helpful. That file will probably be in trial because that lawyer won't mediate or his client won't mediate.
Angela 00:38:13 So there are some lawyers that I you know, there's a certain type of lawyer I've been fairly lucky with the files I have that I don't very often hit that, you know, lawyer that wants to just ratchet it up, ratchet it up, ratchet up. And I feel sorry for those clients that end up with a lawyer like that. Because if we become an ally in the fight rather than an advocate. If we become a yes. Sure. Right. Lawyer? Well, we make more money, but have we really served the client? You have to keep that neutrality. You have to be prepared to say to your client, you're not right. And you know you're going to have a fight that you can't afford and it's going to hurt your kids. And in the estate area, it's the same. This is your family. Your parents did some things that maybe you weren't happy about, but this is your family. Is it really going to matter that much that your sister got an extra $100,000? Because she's got three kids, and mom and dad wanted to give her a little bit more.
Angela 00:39:14 That's the way I try to train my young lawyers. That's the attitude I try to take to the lawyers that I'm against. There are some lawyers that I will not take files against, because I just don't think it's worth the aggravation to deal with someone who wants to practice in a very aggressive fashion, if for no good reason.
Nicole 00:39:36 Well, you're a lawyer that I'd always want to be on the other side of. Angela. And I really appreciate your time and you sharing all your wisdom and knowledge with us.
Angela 00:39:45 You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you.
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