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Nicole Garton 00:00:02 Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters presented by Heritage Trust. Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow. Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters. I'm Nicole Garton. Today's episode is a little different. It's more personal. And I want to start with my own story in 1996. 30 years ago this year, I lost my father, Michael Garton. He was 46 and I was 23. And there's another layer to it. My father had also lost his own father at 46, in a plane crash. Two generations of men in my family, the same age, two families left to carry on. I've now spent more than 25 years working in trusts and estates. I've sat with hundreds of families. The documents matter. I will always say that. But they're not what families remember. Families remember whether they felt looked after, whether they really knew the person, or whether the important things were ever said out loud.
Nicole Garton 00:01:18 So today we're talking about grief, about meaning, and about the kind of legacy that no will or tax plan can hold on its own. My guest is Scott Cunningham. Scott is co-host with Roger Nairn of the Dead Dads podcast. It's a show about men who have lost their fathers and about everything that comes after he joined what he calls “the club no one asked to join” in 2021 when his own father died. By day, Scott is Senior Marketing Specialist with VanCity. Beyond the Boardroom, he co-hosts and produces Dead Dads as a creative outlet and as a way to open up the conversation about men's mental health. He believes in the power of storytelling to build community. Scott is also a Vancouver-based writer and cyclist. He's a husband, a father of, and a veteran of U13 hockey schedules. On his website, My Inner Soundtrack, he writes essays and short stories, many of them inspired by the songs stuck in his head, and he's hosted a podcast interviewing people in his hometown of Drumheller. But not just what they do for a living, but why they do it.
Nicole Garton 00:02:21 That question “why?” is close to my heart. And it's the same question at the centre of good estate planning. On their show, Scott and Roger talk about grief plainly with honesty and yes, with some dark humor. Their rule is simple: if it would not fit in a eulogy, it would probably end up on an episode. And they make room for every kind of father: the good, the complicated and everything in between. Many of you listening have lost a father. Some of you have been the executor. Some of you are watching a husband, a son, or a brother grieve. This conversation is for you, too. Scott, welcome. Thank you for being here in person. So Scott, thank you so much for joining us. I know you have a very successful podcast, so it's a pleasure and an honor to have you as a guest on ours. Thank you. So as we mentioned in the intro, your podcast is called the Dead Dads Podcast. But you, as we just chatted about, you often ask other people about their stories.
Nicole Garton 00:03:22 You don't often have the opportunity to talk about your dad. So tell me about your dad. Who was he? And if I was at your dinner table, what would I have noticed about him?
Scott Cunningham 00:03:32 My father's name. He was known by Sandy. He was Alexander. And that was sort of like a shorthand, I guess, in his era to be called Sandy. But he was Alexander. But he was known by Sandy, as he liked to say. He grew up without a silver spoon in his mouth. He had a very, working class, if you like, background. His parents were not really around when he was a kid, and he was raised a lot by sort of aunts, uncles, cousins and then eventually his grandmother. And so his upbringing was tough, I would say. So at the dinner table. He wasn't crude or lewd. He was always very aware. I don't think anybody would be surprised to find out, like he was not somebody with whom you couldn't be trusted to say something untoward.
Scott Cunningham 00:04:16 But he was very clear about the fact that he was blue collar. And that's what he was proud of. He was funny. He liked to tell jokes. He enjoyed telling jokes. He didn't laugh as much as he liked to be funny, if that makes sense. Like, he laughed rarely. And it was one of the things that he laughed less as he got older. But he was funny and he was really intuitive about mechanical things. He was excellent at fixing things, he was terrible at teaching. And so in a lot of our conversations, the instructional portion was really left to me because he wasn't great at explaining things. He was frustrated by that. So a lot of our interactions were, you know, me watching him and sort of trying to determine what he was trying to teach me. But his inability to explain it was always a level of frustration.
Nicole Garton 00:05:10 So you lost him in 2021? What was that like for you? How has the grief journey been for you?
Scott Cunningham 00:05:17 I lost him in 2021.
Scott Cunningham 00:05:19 I mean, as I think I've mentioned on my podcast too, which is that I sort of lost him a few years before that as he was getting older. You know, as everybody's journey, he was sort of trying to keep fit in a way. And he was going to the swimming pool in the small town that I grew up in, where he lived in Drumheller. And he slipped and he fell and he hit his head quite hard. He had a concussion, and that was a very traumatic experience. It left him with probable brain damage. And it basically turned into a depressive spiral. He would say things like he had…he felt like he had a hole in his head that he could hear the wind whistling through. And he had a marked change in personality. He became sort of morose. He would sort of sit outside the house in the backyard and just sort of stare for hours. And so that was a really troublesome time. That ended up with him attempting suicide, and he was unsuccessful, but my mother was unable to sort of…
Scott Cunningham 00:06:22 She just didn't feel like she was going to be able to, to handle that. And so he was committed to an institution where he could be watched. And it was awful for him. He would call sort of daily and say, you have to get me out of here. You have to release me. And so after about 4 or 5 months that he, I guess, achieved the goal of being allowed to be released, and then he lived for another few years. And the belief that we have which is not substantiated, but was that he noticed that he had cancer, but he didn't act on it. It was in Covid and so medical procedures were definitely not easily accessible like they would have been. But he didn't do anything about it. And so his death in 2021, originally for me, I thought was a release, at first. My first thought was, well, now he has what he really probably wanted. The journey after that has been a lot more complicated. I mean, it led me to therapy.
Scott Cunningham 00:07:15 It led me to a tremendous amount of anger for the first sort of four months, five months. And now, you know, having launched this podcast and the ability to kind of recognize it, it actually has probably been a catalyst towards a lot of positives in my life.
Nicole Garton 00:07:30 So tell me about that. Is this the Kubler-Ross stages of grief, or do you think anger was unique to your circumstances? Tell me about that experience.
Scott Cunningham 00:07:42 Well, having done the podcast, I don't think the anger is unique. And what I've learned, I probably thought so at the beginning that it was unique, but it's very common. My anger was, you know. No one could understand. Like no one had dealt with both a father who had then tried to commit to, like, the particulars. I was angry, and really, I was angry at people who had any level of challenge in their life. Because what right did they have to have any level of challenge and to be frustrated by that because they weren't confronting what I was confronting.
Scott Cunningham 00:08:13 So that was my sort of fixed view on it. And, you know, the reality I think, is there's a lot of similarities to most people like that is, I think, why people seek out others in that headspace, because then you feel like you feel like you can talk to them. Of course they get it. They're the rare excuse of yes, you're allowed to be angry because your father did die. So that is the nature of the process of sort of discovering my grief and, and being okay with being angry, but I don't think it's rare.
Nicole Garton 00:08:43 So tell me about the journey to start a podcast and tell me about the emphasis on men because we, we know men historically or culture, where they frown on them being vulnerable or sharing. So how did you arrive at this idea?
Scott Cunningham 00:08:59 We actually wrestled with it for a while, Roger and I. I mean, his initial. So Roger, my co-host, is in the podcast space. And so Roger works in podcasting. And so for him, I think he was more.
Scott Cunningham 00:09:12 He was more quick to think about podcasts, but how it actually arrived was. Roger's dad died in 2024. And he and I, sort of through general conversation, he kind of started to seek me out and ask like, hey, what was your experience of this? And I was sort of in the therapy journey, realizing how, you know, my growth had come from exploring therapy. So I was keen to talk to him and share some of the experiences and and the specifics around why Roger and I started the podcast, where both of us were more willing to joke, even, you know, the dark jokes, the humor that maybe the gallows humor. So he and I felt comfortable enough that we were sharing those stories. That's why we felt like we could share. But his viewpoint, which I, you know, agree with now, is like there are others that see that as an accessible way to actually release their own grave. So we wanted it to be humorous. And the reason that we kind of wrestled with the difference of men versus others is Roger's point of view.
Scott Cunningham 00:10:11 And I agree too, which is that it is probably the most underserved. If you like, men seem to on the face of its struggle, they're not for the reasons that can be laid across a variety of different methods. They're not good at it. Also, Roger and I identify as men, and so I think we wanted to be authentic. We didn't want to be, you know, offering or offering advice to people with whom, you know, we weren't necessarily connected to. So it felt like the most authentic version. And it also felt like the space where we had the most opportunity.
Nicole Garton 00:10:44 So I have sort of a dead father story. I think I mentioned that when we first talked, but I actually lost my dad at only 46. I was 23. And one of the things you talk about is you, whether you got along with your dad or your parent or not, you measure your life somewhat by their milestones. It's a huge touchpoint. And I remember turning 46 and just the shock of being at the age that I lost him and it's been 30 years.
Nicole Garton 00:11:19 But I do mark my life by some of those touch points. Tell me about your experience. And do you think men have that experience as well?
Scott Cunningham 00:11:28 And I. Am I right? Your grandfather died at that age? Yeah. I think you shared that with me. Yeah, I feel this way. And I've actually explored this with some of the guests on their podcast, which is the sort of death math where you feel like the amount of time that you have on this earth is the amount of time that your father had on this earth. It is absolutely. And it's irrational. And you kind of I wrestle with it. I think about, well, that's silly. I mean, my lifestyle is different than his lifestyle. I mean, all of the various environmental factors, and I'm different and but it's I still I still find myself going like, yeah, but he died this way. So part of me thinks like part of me thinks cancer is coming for me.
Scott Cunningham 00:12:09 That is because that's how he went. I can't get away from that. And so I spend time dealing with that, wrestling with that. You know I'm pushy with my doctor about trying to get earlier screenings for cancer because I think, hey I might be prone to this. This is how my dad went. I'm not necessarily looking at all the other variables of ways that I could be mortal. I'm really focused on that. So that math does weigh on me. And I think also it weighs on specifically the men that we've talked to where you do think I'm going to go at that time. For me, what it does, and it puts pressure to what I felt like when he died, when he had MAID, which is the Medical Assistance in Dying he had MAID. And when he went, he didn't seem at peace. He didn't seem comfortable. I mean, he went and he was upset at the time that he didn't have. And that for me has now put pressure on me to try to feel comfortable if I do have to go at the age that he went.
Scott Cunningham 00:13:09 I'm trying to do more now about if I do go at that time, or whatever time I go feeling like I feel a sense of satisfaction that I've done things, I feel positive about the impact that my life has had. It's put more pressure on me to do that, but I have more connection to, I hope, the ability to achieve it.
Nicole Garton 00:13:29 So you are not a common man. Maybe I'll say you're obviously very good at communicating. You sought out therapy. You've built community and we have this sort of post-modern crisis of, of men and that disproportionately the substance there a lot of men die alone. Of substance use disorder. They they're isolated. They're boys are being somewhat left behind academically. And I think that leads to, a lot of people have complicated father stories because there's this preponderance of, of dads that are absent, or so I think a couple of things come out of that, like number one, complicated grief. And when you didn't have the relationship you wanted with your father, or if it was not a straightforward story, which I certainly have.
Nicole Garton 00:14:23 And then number two, how can we turn this around so more men are like you, are able to address these feelings and issues in a constructive way. Maybe let's talk about the complicated grief part. Like it sounds like you, you really experienced that. You felt anger. Your dad didn't seem at peace. Like, what was that like for you? And in terms of changing your grief.
Scott Cunningham 00:14:47 the complicated grief part and how I think it changed my grief over the course of. Again, I maybe am different in that I'm comfortable talking, so that does help me. I don't feel like…I don't have the words sometimes, and I think that is maybe a more male trait where the words don't come. And so I feel more comfortable with the words. And when the opportunity came through therapy to kind of explore the feelings, the words and the feelings came together so that I was able to see progress. And that actually led me forward because I felt a sense of achieving things, I was getting clarity, I was feeling a sense of movement.
Scott Cunningham 00:15:26 So I guess I share that because I don't know that I'm specifically an anomaly. But there probably are a couple of things that make it easier for me. One is the ability to kind of be more conversant with my feelings and explain them better. I think your point, though, which I know is sort of like a secondary question, which is how does my therapy, how did it grow? And also what is the sort of topic around men's challenges? I think no one ever really asks. Like, it's not as complicated as it is. It just involves asking and maybe asking in a specific way. We've talked a little bit about how maybe men more like checklists that can be like, talk about it like, what have you done while I've gone to therapy? Check. I've actually, you know, I've done some. I've got a new hobby. Check. Sometimes there is a little bit of learning about making it more accessible, but asking and telling other men to ask other men. It seems very like…
Scott Cunningham 00:16:22 Well, it should be more complicated. It isn't really, because asking is just the most honoring way of saying I'm interested. Like I'm here, I'm available. I think that is the most basic, but also the most powerful is when a friend reaches out and says, hey, I want to know how you're doing. And I mean, let's talk. Like, I just want to check in on you. And I think that is the best start. I am a father now as well, and so finding a way to create and to make my son be more comfortable with his feelings and be more aware of the challenges that can come. What I worry about is I spend a lot of time with him talking about death, more so than my upbringing, and I want to be careful with that. That is, maybe a secondary question is a Pandora's box of like addressing feelings and creating a version of manhood that makes him not likely to be prone to this problem. But I also don't want to, like, download my whole history of exploration of my grief into a nine year old.
Scott Cunningham 00:17:23 And so I have to kind of balance that thought process.
Nicole Garton 00:17:27 But we do have a very unhealthy, in my opinion, relationship with death in Western culture. Right. So we have this cult of youth. Death is sanitized now. I mean, people used to die in community. It was. And, you know, I think there's a lot of denial or immortality narratives that we tell ourselves to avoid it. But maybe we'll get to that in a second. You know, what I'm interested in is so you had, like, the classic blue collar dad that didn't like to explain things. So let's say maybe like a tough non-talker type. Right. So how do you think you've so successfully transcended that. And in being able to communicate and help other men and explore this, like given that you didn't actually and as many men don't, didn't really have a role model for that.
Scott Cunningham 00:18:15 Well, the successful answer to that is that I had a mother as well. My mother was a talker, and I actually don't want to do a disservice to my father.
Scott Cunningham 00:18:24 He was a talker, but he maybe wasn't an emotional sharer, but he was certainly comfortable. He wasn't sort of stalwart in the corner, but his emotional intelligence and his introspection was just never there. Never had parents, never rest. So it wasn't there. But my mother was a talker and my mother was, although not necessarily of the generation where, you know, exploring your emotions and being vulnerable. She was much more open to that. But, you know, I could be a little bit introspective now, and I think it's kind of a combination if I'm to look backwards in the lens. Some of the things: I was a voracious reader. I was also an uncomfortable kid. And so I spent a lot of time living in the world of other people in my mind. I spent a lot of time reading. I was sort of a pop culture aficionado, and so a lot of what I think makes me now interested in people is garnered from that. And so in my own life, I try to encourage reading with my children, because I really think reading for me was instrumental in teaching me how to be more emotionally aware.
Scott Cunningham 00:19:27 That EQ, I don't have any basis for that. That's my personal belief, although I know there is some research on it. I would say overall the genesis of my change towards being more emotional. It started as a kid. It was fanned, if you like, through my own parents, in their own ways. And then, I mean, I think part of it is just a genetic application. Like, I've always been really interested in people. I've always been really interested in, like what people are thinking or feeling. And I do feel a lot of empathy in my general life. And so for me, it is a natural progression. What changed is that I realized how much I was holding, like I was interested in those things, but I never really pushed myself to think about it internally.
Nicole Garton 00:20:11 So tell me about the men on your podcast because you see a cross-section of people. Like, what are the commonalities and differences you see. And how they experience their fathers’ mortality.
Scott Cunningham 00:20:24 I mean we've kind of challenged ourselves with this. The kind of guy that wants to go on a podcast generally is honoring their father. That's the broad, you know, of the 20 or so that we've done, the majority of them are they miss their father. And this is a connection point for them. And it's something that will be tangible in the future that they can revisit. And so there is a very common recurring arc of “my dad was a great man. He was fantastic. He was really my, you know, my role model, my touchstone.” And then they talk a lot about their commonalities. Or they say he was really doing everything that he could. He was exercising. He was eating right. And then he died. That's very common, which is he was a hero. I looked up to him. He was perfect. He was doing everything that I think he should do. And then, sure enough, he still died.
Scott Cunningham 00:21:10 And I don't get it. That is a kind of a common trope: I don't get it. Like, why did he still die? Even though they know why he died and why we all have to die at some point, they struggle with that. A couple of other, I think challenges, are maybe a little bit, when they start looking back, they do feel a little bit of like, well, you know, my father wasn't perfect, which is also really interesting because our fathers are like us and like everybody, they're just humans. They're just out there doing their best. And some of the, some of the men that we've talked to who are exploring their dads are realizing maybe sometimes in the session that their dads weren't perfect. And I always find that the most interesting, because they come in there with this sort of clear intention of just sort of putting them on this pedestal. But the point of the podcast is to hear what the process of grief has been like for them. So sometimes in real time, they're bringing up a little bit of the challenge about putting his memory to rest and thinking back about how, you know, he was a father.
Nicole Garton 00:22:04 So you don't have a lot of people that maybe have more of the complicated grief or the disappointment, or they miss what their father could have been, or?
Scott Cunningham 00:22:14 We've had a couple of instances. Like, again, we seek them out. To be honest, we've been trying because I do think it makes it interesting as an ability for men to look at this as a resource. We wanted to have a more wide variety. So we've had a couple whose dads died very young for them. So most of the men are in their 40s or 50s, some of them whose dads died when they were in their 20s, you know, and some of the, you know, the relationships with their dads were a bit complicated. And so in those scenarios, it's really fascinating to me specifically because two of the scenarios are the same and that their dads died and they're in their 20s, and how they became dads and how they became kind of like what they think of as their dad is such a storied thing.
Scott Cunningham 00:22:54 We've had a couple of conversations about men whose dads were not there for them, like they were kind of like mythological. They never really were present. I like those stories again because they're unique, but also because they're more wide open. I mean, they don't necessarily feel so compelled to put their dads on a pedestal cause they don't really know them. And so they are giving more thought into the questions about like, what does grief mean? What are you grieving? You don't know him. Like, how are you grieving? You're grieving a memory of a desire that you never achieved. And that is also really interesting.
Nicole Garton 00:23:31 And so what does it feel like for milestones for you after your dad's death. like, you know, the first Christmas, your birthday, a milestone for your children. What's that experience like?
Scott Cunningham 00:23:43 My first milestone, to be honest. My dad was an auto mechanic. He was a small town auto mechanic. Cars were his life. He was always really fascinated by cars. And for my whole life, how I was like.
Scott Cunningham 00:23:56 My relationship with the automobile was through him. I bought and owned nothing. He facilitated all of the relationships with automobiles. So when he died, about like six months after he died, we had to buy a car and I cried like I was totally like, “I have no idea what to do.” Like he had been. And it's embarrassing because I was in, you know, in my 40s. And I honestly had no idea. I was talking to my wife and saying, like, I totally am exposed here. What if I make a wrong decision? That was my first milestone of this realization that he was. And I think we hear this a lot. Your parents are this sort of validation even as you get older, even as you are much more used to validating your own decisions, they still offer that validation. So the first milestone is when you have to validate yourself, and it is both terrifying and also electrifying because you realize, hey, I did do it, I achieved it.
Scott Cunningham 00:24:54 Did I do a good job? I mean, I have no idea and you have to, I had to go through that whole process of realizing that I have to now validate myself. And also he is never going to validate me again. That was a huge milestone. I would say the other milestone that is probably really memorable is starting this podcast, and the ability to talk about him all the time. Like most of our guests work their way up to coming in and talking and then they leave and they don't do it again. Most of them will, you know, I think probably change there a bit because they've been able to do it, but really it's sort of a let it loose so that they don't have to do it. My milestone has been almost kind of finding ways to accessibly reach the memory of him on a regular basis. That, for me, feels like an achievement that I can do that. It's also a risk because it becomes plastic over, like it becomes covered to the point where it's perfect.
Scott Cunningham 00:25:51 It's just a CD that I play, and then I put it back on the shelf, and I don't want to lose the emotional connection to it, but I'm proud that I can do it.
Nicole Garton 00:25:59 Do you talk to him?
Scott Cunningham 00:26:01 I don't talk to him in a way that I feel like is tangible. Sometimes I do like, what would he do? Like, I think of him and what his opinions would be. My kids ask me because they were quite young when he passed. They like to ask me like, what was he into? And I'm always really appreciative when they do because it gives me a chance to bring him. But I don't talk to him like an individual.
Nicole Garton 00:26:22 So how do you think faith interacts with this grief experience? Like you must see a cross-section of people, whether they have a faith practice or if they serve as agnostic or atheist. Like how do you notice that impacts people's grief journey?
Scott Cunningham 00:26:38 I do. I mean, one of the things that we also thought about a lot on the podcast is… religion is a big part.
Scott Cunningham 00:26:45 Faith and religion and call it when you will, but accessible to the beyond. We were really careful about making… If you wanted to talk about it, it had to be through the lens of that helped you as an individual. And so I have heard and listened to individuals talk about how their faith in a particular thing either comforted them or discomforted them, like challenged them. But faith is great in a way of giving people a path to start the process. And I think that's ideal if there's, you know, a positive aspect or a good aspect. I don't like it if it restricts them, but I've seen the positives of that. For me, faith was never like a big part of my own personal journey. I was not necessarily a strong believer in any one particular organized religion. But I do think that all of us sort of believe that there is something else. It's comforting to believe that there is some other version of what we can see. And most of the people that have come and talked to us, I think kind of hint about that because it's comforting.
Nicole Garton 00:27:52 But we don't know.
Scott Cunningham 00:27:53 No. And of course we don't know. No one knows. I mean, you could just easily turn into a banana. There's literally no ability to understand on any level. Death for us is the end of everything at this point. And anybody that prognosticates otherwise is doing so purely based on their own personal opinions. And I'm for that. I'm okay with that. But no, we have no way of knowing.
Nicole Garton 00:28:16 But do you have, not to put you on the spot, but do you have an intuitive feeling that part of him exists other than his memory or the genetic piece?
Scott Cunningham 00:28:29 I don't mind thinking about it, I would say if I had to be personally held accountable with my hand over the flame, I don't feel like he went into some other place as a whole. If that makes sense. If he lives anywhere, I think he lives on. Maybe genetically, maybe in memories, maybe through like every time a story gets told about him again, maybe every time somebody you know talks about him, that's where the life goes.
Scott Cunningham 00:29:01 At least as far as that. I feel comfortable relating to him.
Nicole Garton 00:29:05 You talked about a recent job change and you want to feel, I guess, in your highest, best use. Tell me a little bit about what that means and how that changed after you lost your dad.
Scott Cunningham 00:29:16 Yeah, all jobs for that matter. I mean, since my father's passing jobs and sort of activities and energy, I am very judicious. I would say I'm…Maybe not healthy, but I really feel the sense of needing to feel a sense of purpose, wanting to feel needed. Am I needed in this application? If my kids want something, do they need my help? Then I want to give them that energy. If I'm going to work at this new job that I've recently started. I want to feel like the skills and the time that I've spent garnering knowledge are being put to use, so that in the eventuality that I pass and people say, you know, were you happy? I think, yeah.
Scott Cunningham 00:30:04 I mean, what is the point of being here if it's not to learn and share? Otherwise, there's really not much use. I have no real desire to earn massive wealth that never really felt genuine to me. If anybody wants to offer it to me, I'm happy to take it. But it's never really felt like a purpose for me. Honestly, I feel that being needed and getting a sense of helping people achieve things is what makes me feel the most. Like I'm on the path towards happiness. When I do pass.
Nicole Garton 00:30:38 Do you think men and women grieve differently?
Scott Cunningham 00:30:41 I do, yeah, I do. I mean, again, there's always broad and I think there are probably unique scenarios on both sides, but I think in my experience of talking to men and also have women friends, and so many of them were like, I really want to be on your podcast, which almost none of my male friends say, right. So my male friends, upon hearing that there was a podcast, were not like, oh, I so want to be on your podcast.
Scott Cunningham 00:31:10 I had to ask them and say, would you please be on my podcast and then reassure them? And then they were great. My female friends asked to be on my podcast and they asked to participate. And so yes, I do think they grieve differently. I think for that reason alone, the willingness to, you know, go into what they know is a male centric podcast or what they know is specifically about death, and they're comfortable doing it. I know you and I had this conversation privately to like the grief process, at least from my experience. They're more willing to explore it, whether they are better at coming to the other side or making growth. Whether that willingness to explore it is sometimes misleading because it isn't. Actually, it doesn't go deep enough. There are probably some genuine changes in there, but I think at the very least broadly, they're more willing to acknowledge that it exists and they're more willing to walk towards it.
Nicole Garton 00:32:06 Do you think this is a cultural thing? Like what is it? And I guess that leads me more to why.
Nicole Garton 00:32:12 Why are men arguably having a hard time if a lot of men are like, what do you think's going on?
Scott Cunningham 00:32:20 I mean, why are men having a hard time is probably a podcast on its own. I think there are. And death is in there. right? I think that men are. And one of the reasons that we talk to men is because I think there is a mental health issue. And you've already mentioned this, men specifically my age group or my socioeconomic status struggle. Why that is probably could be laid again, from my experience. A couple of things one inherited from previous generations. Like we're massively changing, you know, between their grandfathers to your parents, to you. Huge cultural changes, massive like total changes in identity breadwinner versus, you know, collaborative parenting understanding. So your whole sense of value and need is being eroded and has to be remade. And it's uncomfortable. And so I do think what probably men are really struggling with is the feeling of being lost in space, out of place, and not yet finding their footing and not necessarily being even evolutionarily prepared for it, never having to explore it.
Scott Cunningham 00:33:24 And there's no real need. I mean, you can kind of hide. There's other areas, like people don't partner anymore. People stay isolated because there are a lot of other reasons that you can. You can find solace in digital communication. You can, you know, your friendship groups can be more sustaining. And I think our generation is probably the most guilty of this right now, is, there's no need to need anyone else. You don't need anyone else. You can sustain your body. You can probably keep your mind active. And so you can kind of keep kicking down the road, kick the can down the road of dealing with that grief. If you don't really need to.
Nicole Garton 00:34:01 So, listening to you, there's macroeconomic changes. You know the decline in manufacturing, a lot of those largely blue collar jobs have been sort of restructured. And we're asking men to behave nicely in offices, I guess. And maybe that's a fit or not. And women are increasingly more autonomous. And I don't know, our school system.
Nicole Garton 00:34:26 It's funny because I have a son and a daughter and I noticed boys need to be physical. They're kinesthetic. And they would be sort of punished for acting out. It just seems like societally we're not…things are really shifted and we're not necessarily meeting men's needs. And so I, I see things like your podcast and reaching out and building community with men seems incredibly important. But what are your thoughts about what we can do to stem the tide? I mean, we're talking about Dead Dads. Deaths of despair are disproportionately men, right? Like, what can we do as a society to try to address this?
Scott Cunningham 00:35:06 I think the way you explain this, I think, is one of the things that sometimes makes the issue. And not to put blame, but it makes the issue hard because it sounds big, right? It sounds like societal and your upbringing and changes and that sometimes it's off putting because you try to eradicate or erase the problem. What can we do? What single action? And maybe men are more guilty of this.
Scott Cunningham 00:35:29 From this, like. Well, we want to fix it. The problem is broken. We want to fix it. The switch is off. We want to turn it off. That's not achievable. We're not going to fix the entirety of this problem in our lifetime. So part of me, in my personal feelings of the podcast, is acknowledging we're not here to change men's mental health. We're here to maybe through the course of our podcast and our conversations, help a couple of guys or help you know, a few more than we did the year before, in the year before. But trying to make it not feel like, you know, that old adage, like, how do you eat an elephant, right? That is one thing. One of the other things that I think doesn't get thought of enough, it's going to sound very basic, but hobbies. Like most men, spend their whole lives achieving their work and that work becomes their identity. This is, I think, a fundamental challenge because your work ends and you lose your identity, and then it's a cliff.
Scott Cunningham 00:36:26 I was a carpenter. Now I'm a Tim Hortons coffee drinker. Like this sense of purpose is lost. So one of the key things I actually think would make a difference is especially for people that are in relationships and that can encourage this, challenge them to find hobbies. Like men need to find hobbies. They need to find communities. They need to find groups. One of the things that I miss about the generation before is my father used to be in a men's group, the kinsmen, and they would go and they would spend time and they would like they would be present with each other. And would they be emotional? Well, that's a different story, but they're present. I do think that a very reasonable and accessible thing to do is find a community and go there. And then when you're there, be more open if you can ask questions, hey, how are you doing? Like, well, we're golfing. I know, like, I know you had a biopsy. Are you okay? Like, get personal, but get out there because
Scott Cunningham 00:37:21 It seems like we have lost. We still feel like we should be earning, and earning is the only really validation that we have on this earth. I think that's a problem.
Nicole Garton 00:37:30 What is that seminal book, Bowling Alone, that the structural changes in society that we don't have, the community, whether it was churches or like kinsmen or and that people are this increasing, individualistic society. You know, we can stare at our phones and like, you know, you can order food. You can, you know, there's porn, there's that in exchange for real intimacy. Like, there's logical things that make it easier to to hold up. So I agree we're not going to solve that. And in my podcast or yours.
Scott Cunningham 00:38:06 But I saw my father like he retired and he lost who he was like it was a big time for him. And I've seen this happen in this, the generation ahead where they struggle and it made me again on this sort of instructional thought. I started thinking, I kind of get a hobby like and, you know, we're all really busy.
Scott Cunningham 00:38:24 I have young kids and a job and I think, God, it's exhausting to keep up all my male friendships. But then I think if I don't keep them up, like if I have 30 male friends or 30 friends and, you know, through attrition, I end up leaving 10 or 20 of those relationships to falter at a period in time when I suddenly want them, they're not there. So I do think keeping up the energy of friendship, even though you go, oh, it's exhausting. And I go out and socialize and I just want to lay down and watch TV, keeping up friendships, pursuing, just like coffee check ins, phone conversations, text, you know, sending memes, whatever feels authentic. But something is at least a parachute, some sort of sense of safety so that as you approach older, as you approach this period where you're not working exclusively all the time, it doesn't feel like a complete “god, I have no friends. I have no idea what to do.”
Scott Cunningham 00:39:18 I'm just going to sit and watch TV and ponder the change in the world and feel despondent. I think that if people can approach those things, I do think there's some optimism that comes from that.
Nicole Garton 00:39:31 So what surprised you? What in this podcast is something you didn't expect?
Scott Cunningham 00:39:37 Well, in talking to men and talking about this, I think what surprises me is how many people have reached out and said things. That is, for me, still really impressive. We get people from more than people that are in my immediate sphere that say like that. This helps. And that, for me is always surprising because I do think I believe like others, like men don't do it. And so when men do it, I'm always surprised. I'm also surprised at some of the types of men like maybe I think not to be vainglorious, but I feel like I like to talk, and I think that other people are going to come in, but we get people who are mute and they sit down and they're kind of, you know, they're pacing like this and like that and over the course of an hour.
Scott Cunningham 00:40:22 But you know, the minute the tap is opened and allowed to open and you're in the safe space, it comes out. And I'm always surprised by that. The difference between the physical persona of what they're projecting and their immediate ability, after just a small amount of time and a little bit of open conversation there, the feelings come out. It's not that far back, it's not that recessed. It's really just a little bit of prodding in the right space works. And that still surprises me.
Nicole Garton 00:40:52 I think something that surprised me about men when I used to be a divorce lawyer, and something that surprised me about men was because women, this is a very big generalization, because that doesn't apply to you. But a lot of women have wider social networks, and they're more used to sharing their feelings and talking. So if a woman would come in to see me, it would be pretty businesslike. Like she'd be like, here's our assets, Here's the facts. Here's the parenting I want. And you know, we would talk about, of course, personal issues, but a lot of it was business oriented.
Nicole Garton 00:41:27 Whereas you would think that that's the way men would be, but men really would be unpacking their story. And like, I was surprised at how much they talked and like, how much and I mean, not that I was unhappy about it, but how much they wanted to share. And then I was like, you know, this is so interesting. Like, women are coming in and they're more business and men are really talking about their feelings. And I think a couple of things I was like, okay, well, number one, and again, a generalization, but they didn't have a culture or necessarily the peer group where they got to really unpack that first. And so a lot of that was done in that meeting. And then the other, the other strange stat is like 70% of divorces are initiated by women. So the grieving process, if somebody wants to leave a marriage, there's the thinking that there's a grieving process in the marriage, which is often around two years before they even communicate that to the other person, whereas I would have men just blindsided by, you know, their wives.
Nicole Garton 00:42:30 I'd say we talked about it, but their lived experience was they were blindsided. So in fact, I had an experience of a lot of talking, a lot of talking in my office. So and so what I thought was, you know, the projects that you do, which is encouraging connection and encouraging community and working through complex feelings and complicated grief. And, you know, a lot of us unfortunately didn't have, whether as a mother or father, but there's a lot of grief and trauma and things that didn't go well in families. And how can we deal with that in a constructive way? So we don't have repeating cycles of that. So you're obviously doing an incredible thing.
Scott Cunningham 00:43:12 I am always loathe…I don't speak for all men. And I know you don't speak for all women too, and so I think I always feel a bit nervous. But I want to be clear, like I speak for what I feel like is a certain generality based on my experience. And something doesn't surprise me.
Scott Cunningham 00:43:28 There's a weird statistic like they say, you know, men want a manual even though they don't read it, that sort of thing. Like, and so but they want to get the sense that it's there and they might glance at it, but they don't want to be responding to it. And so to a certain degree, the divorce lawyer scenario, like you are a manual, you are an instruction manual, which they don't necessarily want to explore exclusively. But the fact that you're there and you're specific, I'm not surprised because that's what my experience has been. Sometimes you need to call yourself like, person who wants to hear about death, right? And then they're like, okay, well, that makes sense. There's no vagueness. I don't like interpretation. I don't like nuance. I want a little more direct. Right? You are specifically there to hear about divorce because your name is Divorce lawyer. Right? And so I'm not, in a way, part of me is not surprised that you hear about divorce because it's you're a divorce lawyer and that's sort of part of the title.
Nicole Garton 00:44:20 So what's next?
Scott Cunningham 00:44:21 Well, I mean, in terms of the podcast, the thing about the podcast is that it is a passion project. And so Roger and I have a lot of text based conversation, and we are always warring with a couple of different things, which is what do we want to do with it? it cost money as you know, a lot of things do in this life, but it's a hobby. And back to my original point around hobbies. For me, even though it doesn't necessarily provide me with an immediate connection, I get to talk to people. So I want to keep doing it. Next for me is to keep doing it. But we're in a bit of a circle of how. How can we keep doing it? How can we make it feel relative? How can I make it grow? I don't know that we have the answer. We know we probably need to figure out a different funding model, and we also want to keep finding new people.
Scott Cunningham 00:45:05 We keep getting approached, which is great. We keep getting people who are messaging and saying, hey, I saw your podcast. So for me, I want to help all of all those people because they reached out. They opened the door. And the least that I want to be able to do is acknowledge that they did that and find a way to connect with them. So for the podcast, I'll do it as long as it feels physically achievable and financially achievable. Outside of that, I think I am now. Originally I thought I talked about this with someone else. Like therapy. Sometimes I think people approach therapy like an oil change, you know, like there's a limit. There's a time you're like, this is the problem. And then when it's done, unless the therapy is more of a long term, like more, I don't know. Again, this sounds really it's a, it's a it's probably the only person in my life that's only interested in what I have to say. Everybody else is trying to wedge in their own opinions.
Scott Cunningham 00:45:56 My therapist is just there to hear what I have to say. So therapy for me is a continual. I'll do it as long as I can afford it, and as long as it feels like I'm getting some value. So continual therapy, continual pursuit of new and interesting things that I think I can feel needed and make me feel like, you know, I'm rounding out this time on the earth. I'm exploring different aspects that aren't just about my employment or aren't just about, you know, being a father, but more. I want to kind of suck it up a little bit. So all to the point that when I do lay down or die or whatever, I feel the best chance of the sense of like, oh, well, I don't mind. It's okay, I did, I did every time that I could, I pursued a path of taking as much out of life as I could.
Nicole Garton 00:46:48 So is this your midlife regeneration? Is this your butterfly? You don't want a sports car.
Nicole Garton 00:46:55 You got a podcast.
Scott Cunningham 00:46:56 Yes. Yes yes I think that's the, the modern man maybe doesn't necessarily want a sports car exclusively but I won't lie that purchases are the modern…Maybe the modern person's I still like, I bought a bike I now am pursuing like I'm like metal bikes. Hey like there's this whole subculture. I'm into cycling and reading cycling blogs and talking to people about, you know, brake levers and things. And I'm loving the fact that there is a community of people that are doing this. I'm writing. So now I'm going to writing classes and talking to people who write and asking them how they write. I think maybe that is my midlife. It's not a sports car for that community, but I'm looking…I'll spend money to find my community road bike.
Nicole Garton 00:47:37 Yeah.
Scott Cunningham 00:47:38 I have an electric bike and I'm also pursuing maybe a gravel bike and I'm exploring. So yes, I, I am hoping I will earn money towards supporting my hobbies and maybe that is the midlife regeneration that is in the past used to be a sports car.
Nicole Garton 00:47:53 So what about a memoir? You're a child that lived in a world of words. Are you going to share this experience in writing or.
Scott Cunningham 00:48:01 Truth be told from a writing perspective? I didn't want to write a memoir. What I aspired to do when I was a young man and I was growing up in this smaller town, I used to read this author, whose name was Bill Bryson, who's a really well known travel writer, and he made me want to go out into the world and explorer. He was sort of this figure that I aspired to be. And so realistically, what I would love to write is a travel book in his style, which was a humorous, you know, no vlogging, no pictures, not, you know, like just words. Just words and my humor and my ability to relate whatever the experience is and explore into the world. That's my dream, is to go out and write a travel book in a world where everything kind of feels explored, like, can I make…Can I make a genuine effort at making something that people would want to read and I'd feel needed where the world doesn't necessarily feel so mysterious anymore? That's my challenge for myself anyway.
Nicole Garton 00:48:58 Well, that sounds amazing and I wish you the very best. Happy travels. And that you achieved that dream.
Scott Cunningham 00:49:05 Yes. Thank you so much. And I know this. I would love to have a chance to interview you as well, because we've talked about this before. So I would love to also include in our list of achievements the ability to talk to you a little bit, because it's so fascinating about your experience on the other side of this and talking to people who are, you know, processing death and grief. We're always interested to kind of like, look at all these subsidiary industries. I was just talking with someone yesterday whose wife is a nurse who assists MAID. And so she's basically been present at 80 different people's passing. Imagine that. Imagine 80 different people that you watched leave this Earth. That's a rare perspective. No one really—
Nicole Garton 00:49:43 I'd be very interested in hearing her experiences.
Scott Cunningham 00:49:46 And so that's also an aspiration for me, is just talking to more people that are in and around the space because it just again, it fills me with comfort.
Scott Cunningham 00:49:53 But I think it fills others too.
Nicole Garton 00:49:56 Well, thank you so much, Scott. That's been great.
Scott Cunningham 00:49:58 Thank you so much.
Nicole Garton 00:50:04 Scott. Thank you. You've brought a lot of heart and some necessary humor to a hard subject. Here's what I hope our listeners take with them. My father has been gone for 30 years. I don't remember his bank accounts. I remember his voice. I remember what he believed. I remember what he never had the chance to say. An estate plan protects what you own. A legacy protects who you were. The goal is not one or the other. The goal is both. So, yes. Get your documents in order. And while you're at it, say the things that matter. Write them down. Tell the stories. Your family will need both. You'll find Scott and Rodger at DeadDadsPodcast.com and on YouTube at Dead Dads podcast. You can read Scott's writing at my inner soundtrack. I will include all the links in the show notes. If you would like a calm place to start your own plan, you can get a free piece of mind starter kit at a State Club slash starter kit.
Nicole Garton 00:51:01 It includes the Reflect Worksheet and the Estate Values Map, which help you put your values and wishes into words. If you're looking for help with the state administration or with appointing a professional executor or power of attorney, you can find Heritage Trust Company at HeritageTrustCompany.ca.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual, legal, financial, or tax advice. Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances.
Nicole Garton 00:52:05 This podcast is produced by Podfather Creative.
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