Episode 72 - Avoiding Familiy Drama Through Estate Planning with Steve Parr
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Nicole Garton 00:00:02 Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters, presented by Heritage Trust. Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow.
Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters. I'm Nicole Garton. Ask most people about estate planning and you'll hear the same thing. It's an errand, a legal chore, a stack of documents you signed, put it in a drawer and never think about again. But today we're challenging that entire frame because in my experience and my guests' experience, the chore mindset is precisely what produces the worst outcomes, either no plan or plans that are technically valid, but say nothing about what actually matters. Heirs who learn everything from a document at the worst moment of their lives and conflicts that quietly break families apart. Today's conversation is about doing it differently, starting with your values, having the conversations, and only then building the structures to fit the documents come last, not first.
Nicole Garton 00:01:16 I'm delighted to welcome back one of our favourite guests. Returning listeners will remember Steve Parr from our March episode on disaster-proofing your business and personal finances. Steve is the founder of Parr Business Law in Vancouver, where he practices at the intersection of corporate law and estate planning for entrepreneurs and families across B.C.. He's a trust and estate practitioner and a certified executor, advisor and an entrepreneur himself, having built and sold a company before he founded his law firm. He's also and why this is back today, one of the people thinking hardest about the experience of estate planning, how it feels and how to make it meaningful rather than merely legal. Steve, welcome back. It's great to have you here again. So, Steve, you're one of our favorite guests, a podcast regular. Thank you for coming back and chatting with us.
Steve Parr 00:02:07 Absolutely. Thank you for having me back, Nicole.
Nicole Garton 00:02:09 You've got a really busy firm. You do a ton of estate planning, and something that we've talked about is rather than it being sort of a technical chore or like one of those annoying adult checklists, can we reframe estate planning around it being more of a values based exercise? And do you want to talk to me about what your thoughts are about that and why we tend to get better outcomes?
Steve Parr 00:02:35 Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Steve Parr 00:02:36 Before I became a lawyer, I was thinking about, “should I be a therapist or a lawyer?” And I'm glad that I chose law. I think it's amazing and incredibly intellectually interesting, but I always wanted to have more of that soft skill approach and relationship with my clients. And estate planning, I think, is one of perhaps the best areas to have the opportunity to create that kind of connection with your clients. And that goes to it also requires the lawyer to shift their approach a little bit, though, when they're having those conversations, because the lawyer's approach is typically going to be very technical, very much like, okay, here's what we can do, what we can't do. Here are the legal risks, etc. but there's a real opportunity there to have deeper, more philosophical, open ended, broad questions about who are you? What have you built? What does your family mean to you? What relationships are strong? Which ones are weak? Which ones need attention? How do you think that your values and your assets are going to have an impact on the next generation? What would be the best way to craft that? So.
Steve Parr 00:03:42 Absolutely. I think it's not only an opportunity to have more satisfaction as a lawyer, but it's a tremendous opportunity to have an impact on people's lives, because I think estate planning is actually one of the most consequential things that you can do. And so to treat it like a transaction is really a big disservice to the clients and a big missed opportunity for them as well.
Nicole Garton 00:04:07 So let's talk about what the traditional practice was. So usually you would email a client a checklist and it would be like entering your biographical data into your assets and liabilities. You know, put down who your thoughts are for executor, power of attorney, healthcare representative. What do you do differently to make it more values or intention based?
Steve Parr 00:04:30 Yeah, I mean, of course we still have an element of that. You can't draft a will or do all that information without all the biographical data. So there is some information gathering. We do our best to make it more engaging, more personal. You know, I meet with the clients directly.
Steve Parr 00:04:47 And so rather than having to complete all of that on their own, they might have a first crack at it on their own. But we'll go over all of those choices together and create some space for them to talk about the different aspects of it. You know, I think the main thing is just to create an environment that's a little bit more relaxed. You know, it's so critical that the client doesn't feel rushed through the experience and that they feel like they can breathe, because when they can drop their guard a little bit and take their time and not feel like, oh, here's this lawyer who's charging for every six minutes of his or her time and can instead be like, okay, yeah, I, I can think about the three possible choices that would be suitable for executor. I can ask questions about what exactly does an executor do, and how hard is this job going to be for them when the time comes. And because there's so much in there and a lot of estate planning is about trying to project yourself into the future, which is a very conceptually difficult thing to do.
Steve Parr 00:05:58 So it's about opening up a space where you can just wonder together.
Nicole Garton 00:06:04 So how do you communicate that to clients? Because I think maybe, you know, half of Canadians have done no planning. That's pretty much all the studies say. That's roughly the case. You know, that creates really poor outcomes for them and their families in terms of delay and expense and added conflict. And maybe it's this intimidation of meeting with a professional or, you know, how much is this going to cost? Or you know, this is going to be painful. So I'm just going to defer it. Like how do you frame this to people so it's more accessible and that they feel more readily available to sit down and actually do something like this?
Steve Parr 00:06:43 Yeah. Complex answer to a complex question. You know, there's no one simple thing that actually creates that shift. It's a combination of so many different factors. It's, “what does the marketing look like? What do the relationships that I have with other people inside of the community look like?” So that when somebody is referring me or my firm, they already have an inbuilt understanding of, oh, this is what the experience is going to be like when when my client is working with Steve and like if that advisor feels, oh, it's going to be really easy to connect with Steve, or whomever is on my team, and it's going to be really easy to to talk about all the ancillary issues that are connected to this client, then that's going to create more ease.
Steve Parr 00:07:29 So there's that piece, there's the educational component. There's, you know, materials that clients are going to be able to find online. Everybody's going to be doing some googling and some ChatGPT. And, you know, they usually have their own homework in advance of having a call usually. Right? So if they can find content online that indicates to them that they're going to be able to have a relaxed, unhurried conversation that's going to support it. Who's on reception? What's the initial points of contact? You know, in business language, right. Like what's the customer journey from the very first point of contact through to setting up a discovery call? Setting up an initial consult to understanding what the cadence looks like for actually receiving the drafts, for their ability to be able to review the documentation, make changes, etc. and just having it all explained. You know, I think that that is so important to just break down what is this mysterious process going to be? I think this is something that the general public come up against a lot when working with lawyers in general, not just exclusive to estate planning, but every area of law, there's this huge informational asymmetry.
Steve Parr 00:08:40 The lawyer’s this expert up in the ivory tower and has all this hidden knowledge and the client just comes along and is expected to be like, “do your thing, I trust you,” you know? And I don't think that that's a really a fair expectation to put upon our clients. They deserve to know exactly what's going to happen. You know what the timelines are going to look like. Absolutely what the costs are going to be. So in our practice, we're able to offer flat fees 95% of the time, you know, and that provides a lot of reassurance as well for our clients.
Nicole Garton 00:09:17 So there's I think a misunderstanding or an impression that people have that estate planning is only for the wealthy.
Steve Parr 00:09:24 Right.
Nicole Garton 00:09:25 And so there might be intimidation to meet with a professional and or fear around expense. And you know this, I don't do estate planning anymore. But back when I did, we did flat fee and the fees were right on our website, which was, yeah, very anomalous.
Nicole Garton 00:09:43 I don't know why lawyers are afraid to have that transparency, because that's one of the first things that clients actually want to know. So we did flat fee packages based on different fact scenarios, and we put it right on our website. So people knew right at the beginning what's this going to cost. And that I think got a lot of initial fear away. But yeah. What are your thoughts about, you know, there's a lot of middle class, hard working people that think, quote, estate planning. Number one. What even is that? Someone asked me that the other day or yeah, is it only for the wealthy? Like what do you say?
Steve Parr 00:10:17 When addressing what it is, I think it's important to just emphasize planning. You're planning for your life, you're planning for your kids, or if you don't have kids, your loved ones, your relatives. If you have a business, you're thinking about that and any assets that you own and all. You're also thinking about any kind of steps that people are going to need to take when you're not around or if you're incapacitated.
Steve Parr 00:10:44 So it's about incapacity as well. And in many senses, that's a much more urgent conversation because of course, we're far more likely to become incapacitated than we are to pass away. And it's about ensuring that people are there and that they know what to do. So they're armed with the right authority. They have access, easy access to the correct information, and they know what your wishes are. Instructions are so that there's no wondering. Estate planning is also broader in the sense that, you know, yes, there are the fundamental foundational documents that most estate plans will have a will, a power of attorney, a health care representation agreement to make health care choices. And there can also be things like various types of trusts. That's obviously a complex topic, but it's also things like insurance. Should life insurance be a part of that conversation? Is the estate going to have a tax liability when mom and Dad both pass away? If there is, what's the plan around dealing with that so that the estate doesn't have to sell off assets that the beneficiaries would rather enjoy.
Steve Parr 00:11:53 So there's a lot there. It's something that I think is not done in an hour. It cannot be done in one hour. And it should rather be a type of conversation that is ongoing. It's ongoing within the family unit itself, and then it's an ongoing conversation with that person's advisors, their lawyer, their financial advisor, their accountants, and even other family members. So one of my favorite clients, they do this incredible thing. She's been fortunate enough to develop a pretty strong real estate portfolio over the years. Her and her husband. And every year they get together on zoom with their extended family, which is all across Canada and some in the US. And they have a bit of a town hall. This is what's going to happen if we become incapacitated. This is what our plan is for the portfolio. This is what happens if we're both passed away. Which of the children are going to do what. And it's all very transparent. The numbers are there. They're incredibly organized around it.
Steve Parr 00:13:06 And she was telling me like it was awkward at the start, you know, like they didn't know what they were doing. It was kind of weird. But now, because they've done it a couple of years, it's actually something that everybody kind of everybody looks forward to. And can you imagine, like the sense of relief and ease that this creates inside of that family system? Like it's really a beautiful example. Yeah.
Nicole Garton 00:13:31 So because we work in this area, we see what works and doesn't work. And, you know, do you have to tell your kids every penny or, you know, the intricate nitty gritty of your net worth? You don't necessarily have to do that. But certainly clarifying fundamental values, goals, generally speaking, what your plan is. Certainly if anything's going to be a surprise, definitely getting in front of that. It's a terrible idea for people, if something's going to surprise your family, that it’s not a good idea, that they find out if you're incapable or not living.
Nicole Garton 00:14:09 It's way better, that proactive conversation. And, you know, different families require different conversations. Like if you're in a first marriage with two able bodied adult kids and you're, you know, leaving everything 50/50, I don't know that you have to have huge proactive conversations, but if you're in a blended family, if there is going to be an unequal distribution, if there's conflict or an estrangement, you know, if there are a lot of farm and fishing families, there's one kid working on the farm or on the boat that is a disproportionate value to other state assets and really getting in front of that and what the goals and expectations are like. It depends, how involved the conversations need to be. But because of what I've seen in practice, where surprises are terrible and, you know, in an absence of information, that can breed mistrust and worry, which can precipitate conflict, delay and expense. We have a blended family and we're not doing anything very unusual. We're leaving everything to each other, last to pass away, equally to our respective kids.
Nicole Garton 00:15:21 But we had a really proactive conversation with the kids saying, this is what we're doing and this is why, and we're organized and this is what we're doing to make sure it's fair. And I think in the absence of having that conversation, I think they might have wondered.
Steve Parr 00:15:35 Yeah.
Nicole Garton 00:15:36 And maybe had a concern. And so we, you know, are we telling them what our net worth is? No, we're not doing that. Are we making promises that they're going to get certain amounts of money. No, we're not doing that. But we're saying, look, “We've thought about this carefully. This is how we're going to distribute the assets. This is who's going to be in charge. And we've made sure that there's not going to be unexpected–we can't prevent it–but we've done what we can to prevent problems.” And I think there's an enormous amount of relief. And so you can decide as a family, like how much you want to share or not share.
Steve Parr 00:16:11 Yeah. And I think it really is different for every family and how families approach.
Steve Parr 00:16:18 It's a very personal thing, you know, and I don't I wouldn't want to be–and I'm sure you wouldn't either–to prescribe to any family how they should have these conversations. They know their family's best, but we are advisors and we have insights that are drawn from working with hundreds, thousands of clients and family systems that I think are unique and are valuable. So we can offer those kinds of questions and some prompts and you know the clients can do what they will with that. And I'm so curious to hear a little bit more about how was that received by–if you're comfortable sharing–by your kids and by your partner's kids.
Nicole Garton 00:16:58 So I perceive that it was positive. We certainly haven't had pushback. Yeah, yeah. But you know, it's funny. So we've I have two children from my first marriage. My husband has three children from his first marriage. So we have five together. And so we're under 65. So we can't do something called a joint partner trust, which is sort of a technical thing, but something that many people use in blended families.
Nicole Garton 00:17:23 Yeah. So what we said to the kids is we're leaving everything to each other. On the last pass away, everything's going equal five ways. And not everybody likes these, but we have what's called a mutual will agreement. So what that means is that if one of us is hit by the proverbial bus next week, and the other one lives 25 years. Whether this is good or bad, but the survivor is actually not allowed to change their will. So they could subsequently remarry. Things could happen, but we decided that we are going to contractually lock down the fact that we were going to leave at five ways to make sure that the kids were protected and to prevent there being issues. And so, I mean, there could be other issues with the mutual agreement, but that's a decision we made. And I remember one of my stepdaughters said, so she's like, so if you change your will, I can sue you. And I said, well, I'd be dead.
Nicole Garton 00:18:16 But yeah, you could sue the estate. Right? And I think that helped to relieve potential concern. Does that make sense? And did we bring equal wealth into the marriage? Are we exact equal owners? No. But are we going to receive equal inheritances from our families? No, but we made a values decision, in that we decided that we wanted everybody to be treated the same because we value them all and love them all equally, and that we were going to treat them as our mutual children, whether they were biological or not. So that was a values decision that we consciously made and that we've actioned. And I think the mistake sometimes people make is that they go into a lawyer's office and they are deferring to the professional, but they become form filler-outers. Yeah. Whereas I think if you get really clear in advance, you know what is. We've worked really hard. This is our family situation. What does success look like for us as a family? What really matters to us as a family.
Nicole Garton 00:19:22 And we had clarity on that piece. And so when we did the planning, the planning was faster and cleaner because we were able to make better decisions because we knew in advance. And I think that is something you and I have talked about. I've got a book coming out shortly called The Peace of Mind Estate Planning System, and it's meant for middle class Canadians like, you know, all of us hard working, everyday people. So it's not meant for ultra wealthy people, and it's meant to be a sequence. And so it's like, educate yourself, organize your assets, create the binder, the list of all the information. But the third stage is reflect, which is to sit down and really think, “what are our values like? What's our unique story? What a success look like for us? What do we envision for the future? What kind of legacy do we really want to leave?” Yeah, and you know, it doesn't have to be like you're doing Kumbaya on a three day retreat.
Nicole Garton 00:20:20 Like it's it just means maybe you're just sitting at a kitchen table and having a conversation for an hour with your spouse, like, but just really getting on the same page about what really matters to you. And then you hire the professionals. But through that piece, then you know who the professionals are going to help you. And the decision making is a lot more clear. but what's your experience with people and helping them make the right decisions for their families?
Steve Parr 00:20:46 Yeah, most of my clients have not done that kind of contemplation. Some have for sure, but it's rare that they come to the table equipped with that kind of self-knowledge and understanding of what makes sense for them. You're right that, you know, two adults with two children who are able bodied and first marriage, not a blended situation. Yeah. Naturally, it's a little bit more simple and streamlined, and it's fairly predictable what they're going to want and how they're going to want things to go.
Nicole Garton 00:21:18 Usually, as long as they don't hate each other.
Steve Parr 00:21:20 As long as they don't hate each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if they're minor children then yeah, hopefully it's pretty clear. But yeah, when it's a blended situation, you are very much presented, because there's so many ways to do family you know, like an, a blended family is exactly that. It's you know, you can make very deliberate, concrete choices about what you want, the shape of your family, both there in your lifetime, obviously, and then after you pass to look like. And that has very long lasting consequences. So I mean, it's heartwarming to hear how you and your partner have approached that because I think, like, of course, that would obviously change how the children from your respective lines would interact with each other. There's no question that if things were done differently or if it was just kind of a a blank slate and nobody really knew what was going to happen, and you hadn't had that kind of interaction, like things are going to be different and probably estranged, I would say, like more likely than not, there's going to be some tension there.
Steve Parr 00:22:27 You know, and I think that that's really what people don't appreciate and not for any not to fault them at all. It's just like it's Outside of our comfort zone as a society, as a culture to think about death. To think about our absence. To think about the fact that we're all here on borrowed time, and we don't know how long that's going to last. It's not a comfortable thought exercise. And and again, going back to what we were talking about at the beginning of just creating that space. Yeah, we want our clients to not feel rushed. We also want to create an environment where they feel emotionally safe enough to drop into these deeper conversations. You know, I am not a therapist and I don't provide therapy in my practice, but I do want and hope that the experience is in some way therapeutic for my clients.
Nicole Garton 00:23:25 So if people are choosing a professional to help them, like maybe it's a notary, maybe it's a lawyer, maybe wild thought they're going to do a will kit.
Nicole Garton 00:23:35 Like how do people decide who's right for them?
Steve Parr 00:23:38 You know, for some people, maybe they do. To do something online, they do a will kit. You know, you and I would never endorse that, of course. And I think that if that's something instead of nothing, then, you know, so be it.
Nicole Garton 00:23:50 Well, I would clarify. I think it can be okay if you have a very simple situation. If you have a super simple situation, it certainly can be better than nothing. But it doesn't work well for incapacity planning, you know, and if you have any complexity or a conflict, which is, let's face it, for most people it's a recipe for potential issues.
Steve Parr 00:24:16 Yeah. And we had talked about, you know, the quote unquote simple scenario of two parents and one child or two kids, sort of nuclear family scenario. And I think that actually that scenario is actually not as simple as it looks in that most of the clients that come in, they don't know it, but they will want trusts.
Steve Parr 00:24:40 They will want trusts that are set up inside of their will. That's something that a notary can't do, and that's something that an online will kit is quite dangerous to do. Trusts are complex legal entities that have tax consequences, far reaching tax consequences. And there's a reason why professionals spend years and years and years learning how to draft them effectively and again. I think it goes back to that misunderstanding that estate planning is only for the rich. And no, it's deep learning for anybody who cares about what happens when they go. And setting up trusts is like one of the most effective ways of having some degree of control over where your assets are going to go and what kind of impact they're going to have on a young adults life.
Nicole Garton 00:25:28 So let's give people the checklist. So yeah, minor kids certainly a disabled beneficiary or beneficiaries with issues if it's like substance or mental health. Blended families. Those are big ones.
Steve Parr 00:25:43 Yeah. Business owners. You know, the business owner one is really interesting because it's not just about minimizing probate, but it's also about ensuring that there's some continuity for the business.
Steve Parr 00:25:55 Should something to happen on the incapacity side that there is some liquidity in place. People work so hard on their businesses, often for decades after decades. And if there's not a plan in place, then the entirety of that value that has been accumulated, the goodwill, all of that can be lost very, very quickly if there's not an appropriate succession plan in place. And just as thinking about what's going to happen for your family, what's going to happen with your business can be equally an overwhelming type of conversation. But the earlier that you can have it, the better, and you can start taking steps during your lifetime to structure your business so that it can accommodate your absence, which ultimately should be, I would hope, the objective of most business owners, you know, so that they can have the kind of freedom that they have worked so hard to create.
Nicole Garton 00:26:47 So somebody wants to hire a lawyer to help them. How do they identify who is going to be a good fit for their family and someone that they're going to feel comfortable with? Certainly, if they're going to be talking about, as you say, more of the soft things, like their values and goals and things, how do people get in front of the right person?
Steve Parr 00:27:06 Yeah, we work in a very referral-heavy environment, and I think that's for good reason.
Steve Parr 00:27:11 You want to have hopefully you already have somebody in your life, whether it's a family friend, maybe if you're in a network of business owners asking them, maybe you work with an existing financial advisor or an accountant or another lawyer, you can ask them. And if you provided that, you have a great relationship with them, their reputation depends upon the quality of the referrals that they make. Most professionals worth their salt understand this. And so they're going to point you towards somebody who will take care of you. That's at least that's the hope. Referrals are a whole big topic of conversation. There are good referrals and there are poorly-handed-off referrals. Ideally, when somebody is making one, they're going to call that person and say, “hey, are you available? Is this the kind of file that you want to take on, etc..” So hopefully it's a good referral that's made. If you don't know anybody, then yeah, there may be a bit of a process of shopping around and picking up the phone, making some appointments, and you'll probably learn pretty quickly, perhaps even without meeting the lawyer in question who's going to be a good fit for you.
Steve Parr 00:28:19 Because any lawyer who's doing estate planning, who is designing a process for their clients that they feel welcome, not intimidated, etc., they're going to have put some thought to that in terms of how their staff Greet new prospects, what the process is like to collect all that information. We were talking about what the whole journey is like, and if that feels good and comfortable, then that's a good sign. Yeah.
Nicole Garton 00:28:45 So let's get into nitty gritty because like, lawyers are funny, they're so reticent to talk about price. Like, you know, here's what people are really thinking. Like how much is this going to cost me? Yeah. And how long is this going to take? Like, so what is the range? Like, so say it's a couple and, you know, somebody's got a condo and a small roof and one child on one end of the continuum. Maybe there's a blended family or a disabled child. Like, what's the expected range that people can expect to pay? Obviously it's a range.
Nicole Garton 00:29:19 And how long is this process going to take from start to finish?
Steve Parr 00:29:22 Sure, sure. The range that I always quote my clients is somewhere between $3,000 and $10,000, and that's a pretty big range. Obviously, the more complex the file is, the more likely it is going to be towards the top end of that range. But yeah, many of my clients do come in and they very much land towards the bottom end of that range because they have a very straightforward set of wishes, and we're able to put together a plan that makes sense for them in a fairly economical and efficacious fashion. So it's not necessarily something that's going to break the bank. You know, it's given that this is an expense that is literally the most important contract that you'll ever enter into, into your lifetime. And it's not something that you need to necessarily do every year, although it is something that should be updated. And and that's something that we bake into how we approach things as well. We'll offer discounts for future updates, like we want to make that process easy.
Steve Parr 00:30:19 We want people to feel like, okay, I've I've not just done done these docs once and now they're sitting on a shelf, but rather I've begun a conversation with a practitioner with their firm, and we'll be able to continue to have this conversation in the years to come as things change in terms of timeline. Faster than you think? Yeah. After we've got all the information that we need and the clients probably retained, then we can turn around a plan with as little as 7 to 10 business days. So it's really quite quick. Usually there is, you know, some degree of, of back and forth of trying to figure out, you know, who, what the appropriate distribution should look like. Some tax issues sometimes arise. Like there's always like a few wrinkles and every plan. But in general it's it's under a month.
Nicole Garton 00:31:07 Okay. So I want you to give a pitch because I. Okay. We've been doing this a long time. So I know I already know what people are saying.
Nicole Garton 00:31:14 They're listening okay. So there's a you know, we're living in an economic timer. A huge percentage of us, unfortunately, are living paycheck to paycheck. Inflation is rising relative to what we make, particularly in centres like here in Vancouver and Toronto, and people are scrambling, unfortunately, to pay gas and their mortgage or their rent and groceries, like somebody is like, oh God, I don't want to spend $4,000. I'm just going to go into staples and buy a kit or go online. Tell me why they should seriously consider spending $4,000 on an estate plan.
Steve Parr 00:31:51 Yeah, because you cannot get advice from a kit. And if you're going to go into staples and fill something out, you may as well not do anything at all. Really, because if you don't have advice, then you could just as easily create something that leads you to have a false sense of certainty as false sense of security over what you're actually doing. But the document might not be properly executed. It might inadvertently create outcomes that were not your intention at all.
Steve Parr 00:32:19 You don't have anybody in your corner to consult with if you have other questions. And there are a lot of elements to the estate plan that are not just covered within the confines of the will, the power of attorney, and the representation agreement itself. Even if those documents are properly drafted. I can't tell you how many clients have come to me and said, yeah, I got my stuff done. I have no idea where it is. They've misplaced it. Even if they did get it with a lawyer, you know, like those kinds of things can slip through the cracks and they frequently do. Also, people don't necessarily keep a running list of what assets that they have. So you can imagine just because you've created a will you think like, oh great. Okay. Even if you know where the document is, does your executor know where that document lives? Does your executor and does your power of attorney do? Do they know and do they know what to do? Do they know what kind of conversations the testator or the creator of the will should have with those individuals? Have they been coached to do that? If they don't, then those individuals can be shooting in the dark as well.
Steve Parr 00:33:23 Yeah, they might not know where the docs are. They might not know what the estate actually has one of the clients that I worked with. They did have an online will. This was actually before online wills was done. This was like a will in a box, I guess. Like they would buy staples or something like that. And the individual passed away at a young age, 45. By that point in time, they had accumulated a lot of wealth and their spouse didn't know what to do. They didn't know where the wealth was actually contained. In this case, there was a lot of real estate that was involved and a lot of that real estate. The banks actually foreclosed on several of the properties because there's certain timelines around mortgage renewals, etc., and this was not an unsophisticated client. This is just a sophisticated client who didn't have the information in front of them that they needed. So yeah, when you're thinking about whether it's $4,000, you've got to keep in mind that the consequences on the other side of things can be catastrophic, catastrophic financially, but also in terms of the kind of stress that.
Steve Parr 00:34:34 That can be created from that.
Nicole Garton 00:34:36 So unfortunately it heritage trusts were ground zero. Yeah. Of what not to do because we often get appointed unfortunately where there's an intestacy i.e. that's when someone dies without a will and or there was poorly drafted or very old documents. And we basically get often court appointed into into situations where the planning wasn't done properly. So you know and then sometimes we think it's an untested estate, we're cleaning out the house. And then we invariably find the will kit in the back in a box somewhere when we're six months into administration. This is, by the way, a real one. Yeah. So then now we have to stop everything and try to put that in front of a court and see if that's even valid. So. So what does that look like? The, the reality is that there's a lot of delay. There's incredibly increased unfortunate of costs like professional fees, executor fees. You know, nobody has authority to deal with the CRA. So there's interest and penalties and things.
Nicole Garton 00:35:42 Both people get authority. And unfortunately, in an absence of information and delay and confusion, that's a breeding ground for conflict. And so and maybe that's why in my own family, we decided to, to be so proactive and transparent with our kids because unfortunately, I have a first a front row seat of what happens when it doesn't go well. And so you gave a good pitch. And the pitch that I would say to people is, you know, you've worked so hard your whole life. You've, you know, you've built a career, you've maybe had kids, you've like, contributed to the community, you've maybe been involved in arts like, but a whole legacy of what you've left. And don't let that final word be one of stress and delay and and conflict. And it's you know, people will say, you know, it's the half of Canadians that haven't done it. And it's like, you know, it's so stressful. I don't know where to start. I don't have a few thousand bucks right now in my jeans.
Nicole Garton 00:36:41 I'm just going to defer this and worry about it later. The problem is, every day that you wake up and you're building something, you're potentially not to be dramatic, but potentially throwing it away by not dealing with this, right. So I think if that's the pitch and it doesn't have to be painful, it doesn't have to be outrageously expensive, it doesn't have to take forever. But even a small amount of good planning can save a world of trouble.
Steve Parr 00:37:06 Yeah. And brass tacks. Like, we offer payment plans. Like we have abilities to make this not as painful as it needs to be in that short term basis. Like, there are ways to do it. And I don't know if most, but some lawyers will be able to offer that as well. So there are options out there if that's a primary barrier. And you're absolutely right. You don't get another word. You know, this is the last word. And it is what your family is going to remember and. Yeah. You and I have both come across so many client family situations where that's what they're talking about, when they're talking about their mom and dad or uncle or whomever, who who passed away and didn't leave things clean.
Nicole Garton 00:37:48 So, Steve, what does legacy mean for you? You're working hard. You're building a business. You work with families all the time. What does what does that mean for you?
Steve Parr 00:37:57 I mean, that's an ever evolving question. Of course, as you know, I'm, you know, early 40s and building my business and having a great time doing it and developing my network and my relationships. And I have a family that I was born with, but I haven't I don't have a family that I've created yet. So, yeah, I mean, check in with me in the years to come, I guess. But like, right now, what it means is I'm honoring what I've created. I'm honoring the relationships that I have right now, and I have a great many of them, and I want everybody that I've come across that I've invested so much time and energy into to feel like they're taken care of. And, you know, it comes down to how I use my money and use that time and what type of gifts that I'm leaving behind for for my parents, for siblings, for my nephews.
Steve Parr 00:38:53 That's what I think about. And I think about like, how can I create my life so that the impact that I have is going to be felt, not because I want to be felt as like some sort of immortal presence? Nobody gets that. And I don't think it's really all that healthy to aspire towards that. But I do think it's important to recognize that we have an impact here. You know, we all come here. We're all here for a short time. But there is there's an opportunity here to to leave this place a little bit better.
Nicole Garton 00:39:24 And I feel the same way. So, you know, I have a family where unfortunately, estates weren't always as organized as they could have been. And I've witnessed firsthand, unfortunately, wealth loss and conflict and estrangement. And I think the experience of that is what can I do better? So how can I help other families plan? And how can I make sure the legacy that we leave to our children is one of wealth, and by wealth, as we both know, it doesn't just mean financial wealth.
Nicole Garton 00:39:59 You know, there's the wealth of the individuals themselves. There's the wealth that we leave in our communities. It's intellectual wealth. It can be philanthropic wealth. You can think about it holistically. It's not just numbers on a balance sheet. There's a lot more that we contribute as humans and that we can thoughtfully and meaningfully, you know, leave behind.
Steve Parr 00:40:22 Yeah. And it's something that on a very practical level is service providers we need to be thinking about, you know, that we are thinking about like, should something happen to me, there are people that would step into place to take care of my clients. And I've gone through the steps to ensure that that exists and that there's there are some very practical things that should be in place. And I think for for any service provider, for anybody who has a business, because you want to be you've spent so much time creating those relationships with your employees and with your clients and customers, and they deserve to feel like they would be taken care of, even if that means they have somebody just to communicate with should something happen.
Steve Parr 00:41:01 So yeah.
Nicole Garton 00:41:03 And if it's messy, you know, there are trust companies that can there are clean it up. But it's not it's definitely not the first choice.
Steve Parr 00:41:11 You know for sure. And I think that but I think in many instances it probably should be the first choice to have a choice like, well, maybe I know you don't want to come in after the fact and court appointed. Like that's a mess. But like, you know, I do think it actually is a very sound choice in many circumstances to appoint a trust company to support the distribution of assets inside of a will or inside of a trust, especially when the situation is complex. If there are international tax issues, if there is a business involved and there's nobody inside of the family who would be a suitable successor, like, yeah, absolutely. Have a trust company in there. They can manage the sale. They can manage the an orderly wind up of the business that doesn't degrade what the value of the business is they can deal with.
Steve Parr 00:41:55 Like if there is no suitable executor who lives inside of Canada, then you have a big tax issue. And so that's a very good use case for appointing a local Canadian trust company like heritage to to be able to step in.
Nicole Garton 00:42:08 So I guess for people who are wondering about this, I'd say maybe 5 to 10% of people might be a candidate for professional executor, professional trustee, or professional power of attorney. So those people might be maybe you never had children and you want a secure company that's not mortal. That will be there. Maybe you have a blended family and you want a neutral person. Maybe you've got a disabled beneficiary and you want to have long term continuity for somebody to manage funds for that person. Or like you mentioned, maybe there is complexity in that. There might be a business or things, and you don't want to burden your family members or friends with something that is going to be like complicated or time consuming. So, so it is probably 5 to 10% of people should think about it.
Nicole Garton 00:42:59 But again, it's about getting into professionals office, telling them about your circumstances, and then listening carefully about the advice that they have and then making the best decisions for you and your family. Yeah. And, you know, worst case scenario, if it is, you know, if somebody dies unexpectedly and there isn't a will or it's really old or people are fighting anyway, because even the best planning doesn't necessarily guarantee that there won't be conflict. There are. There are checks and balances and things in place, and so things do get cleaned up. It's just the question is, does it how long does it take and how much does it cost. But I mean, everything eventually does get resolved. Right. Yeah. Is there anything you want to leave our listeners with in terms of how to be more thoughtful, or are values based around their planning?
Steve Parr 00:43:48 Well, turn them to some of your wonderful resources, you know. And yeah, it sounds like you have a book coming out that is intended to do exactly that.
Steve Parr 00:43:57 So yeah, whether it's doing that or finding another resource that speaks to them, there are people and there are books and podcasts like this one that I think are going to help people begin to have these conversations. And I think the best step is just the first step. Take any kind of step, whether it's just spending five minutes, journaling, Taking 20 minutes to set aside with your partner and have a discussion. Talk about these things and say, hey, like, we're not going to necessarily resolve all of this, but let's at least start to put these items out on the table so that we know that what we're dealing with and we we can start to turn our minds to it rather than just avoiding the conversation. You know, they're difficult conversations, but they're opportunities for growth inside of us, both emotionally and personally, but also inside of our relationship to. I think this can actually be a forum for enhancing your relationship with your partner, enhancing your relationship with your kids and just feeling better about yourself and more in integrity with what you stand for.
Nicole Garton 00:45:01 well, that's an amazing way to leave it. So how can people find you, Steve?
Steve Parr 00:45:05 Find me online at Parr Business Law. I'm so poor and. Yeah, I'm out there.
Nicole Garton 00:45:11 Great. Thank you so much.
Steve Parr 00:45:12 Thank you.
Nicole Garton 00:45:18 Steve. Thank you. Twice now you've given us conversations that are practical and thoughtful, and I suspect this will not be the last. Here's the reframe. I hope our listeners carry out the door. Your estate plan is not a stack of documents. It is the last and perhaps most important communication you will ever make to people you love. The documents give it legal force, your values give it meaning, and the conversations you have while you're still alive are what give it a real chance of working. Start with the values, have the conversations, and let the structures follow. You can find Steve and Parr Business Law at ParrBusinessLaw.com.
I'll include his contact details and links in the show notes. If you want to explore estate planning, estate administration, or appointing a professional executor or power of attorney, you can find Heritage Trust at HeritageTrustCompany.com now or book a consultation directly with us online.
Nicole Garton 00:46:09 Steve, thank you again for sharing your insights with us, and thank you to our listeners for joining us on Your Estate Matters. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who may benefit from it and join us next time for another practical conversation about estate planning. Estate administration and legacy in Canada.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual, legal, financial, or tax advice. Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Your Estate Matters. If you like this podcast, make sure to follow it on your podcast platform of choice. Whether you're planning your own estate or you're acting as executor for somebody else's heritage, trust can help partner with Heritage Trust to protect your family, your assets, and your legacy. If you'd like more information about Heritage Trust, please visit our website at HeritageTrustCompany.com
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